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Dynamic Lighting integrated with Fog of War (Warcraft 2 style)

+1, would love to have it even if it works only for the current session
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+1. player vision removing fog of war sounds perfect.
+1
+1
This would be so awesome for my dungeoneering players!
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Dresden_Kurosaki said: A possible solution to this was Warcraft 2's answer to fog of war. Not only do PCs get the "in control" (sight) benefits of dynamic lighting, but they are also treated to a dimmed path they have taken throughout the Dungeon crawl, so that they can remember where the have been and the general lay out of the dungeon (while dangers creeping up behind the are still "invisible" to the PC's sight). Put simply, the characters use their sight bubbles to "open" up the map, while still being blind to areas normally restricted by the current structure of Dynamic Lighting. However, the players could now look back over the "darkened" map and not just see utter blackness, but the serpentine track they took to reach the area they are currently in. I am currently checking out a variety of tabletop programs and trying to decide which one to learn, and I was wondering if roll20 had this feature.  I guess not.  I know maptool has it.
+1
+1 to this.
+1
+1
+1 I was hoping for the same, with the current dungeon-crawl my players are going through. I'd love to use Dynamic Lighting, but both as a player, and knowing the current group of players I have - I know we'd want to be able to at least dimly see the path taken to get to the current point.  In the meantime, we'll just have to deal with the momentary starts & stops as I lift the FoW. 
+1 The way this was handled in WC2 was so simple that it was innovative, and could do a lot of good here!
Riley D. said: We are definitely looking into this as a possible feature for the next big update -- I think it's a cool feature as well...however, the main thing that might keep it from happening is figuring out a way to do it that doesn't require massive amounts of data. For example, if you have a 100x100 grid map, that is 7000x7000 pixels. Keeping track of exactly which "pixels" have been exposed or not would be a massive amount of data. Really the only way I can think of that this would be feasible from a technical standpoint is to have some sort of "polygon-based" system, where we could "merge" polygons together as you explored the map...but I'll have to give it some more thought. What if you, on drop, tested what grid positions were at least 50% revealed, and then record the grid position as revealed or not. Reduces the data set in your example from 49,000,000 positions to 10,000. On reload, the Fog of War would appear jagged, but most game systems I've used compute line-of-sight in a similarly binary system.
+1 I've been dying to make a tabletop strategy using something like this!
1457687446
Calistocrates
Marketplace Creator
+1
+1 My group enjoys the sudden encounters,  puzzles and other small effects you can do with dynamic lighting (main reason I have decided to re sub.) but my players often lose track of where they were before ( i like complex dungeons) and this feature would help so much, i would even be willing to spend another 5 bucks for it :P
+1 Liking Roll20 enough to sub, but it's still lacking some functionality like this that Maptool has had for a long time. 
+1 I'm in dire need of this!
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+1 I'd love to see it implemented kinda like in Skirmish VTT.
Ray M. said: Riley D. said: We are definitely looking into this as a possible feature for the next big update -- I think it's a cool feature as well...however, the main thing that might keep it from happening is figuring out a way to do it that doesn't require massive amounts of data. For example, if you have a 100x100 grid map, that is 7000x7000 pixels. Keeping track of exactly which "pixels" have been exposed or not would be a massive amount of data. Really the only way I can think of that this would be feasible from a technical standpoint is to have some sort of "polygon-based" system, where we could "merge" polygons together as you explored the map...but I'll have to give it some more thought. What if you, on drop, tested what grid positions were at least 50% revealed, and then record the grid position as revealed or not. Reduces the data set in your example from 49,000,000 positions to 10,000. On reload, the Fog of War would appear jagged, but most game systems I've used compute line-of-sight in a similarly binary system. could you remember which grid positions have been visited and calculate on the fly in a greyed out 100% light rather than full dynamic light? Might mean a lot of rendering, but certainly a lot less memory.
+1
+1
+1
+1 One option for dealing with the difficulty of updating the FoW would be to give the GM a button to "update FoW", which would reveal the parts of the map that any member of the party can see at that time. Since you're already computing those polygons, it should be a minimal change.
This should absolutely be the #1 priority to complete, outside of say, getting official licensing from WoTC. From a straight playability stand point, this would be an absolutely enormous step forward.
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plexsoup
Marketplace Creator
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Not sure if anyone else has suggested this yet, but I stumbled across this workaround the other day. Make a character that everyone has edit permissions for (call it breadcrumb trail). Give it a token (torch, dot, or breadcrumb) which casts light and has sight. Drop copies of that token around your map as the breadcrumb trail. Since All Players have edit privileges, they can "see" through each breadcrumb's eyes. (Of course, the GM will have to move wandering monster tokens to the GM layer.)
Someone else might have already suggested this but I'd be quite happy doing it manually similar to how FoW already works in Roll20. Basically I'd just "reveal" rooms in the FoW that they've already been to. Would stop it from feeling quite so claustrophobic and dull to look at when the players are traipsing down a 5-foot corridor. Basically add another type of FoW that, when revealed, allows players to see the map layer regardless of dynamic lighting/LoS. Or integrate this as an option in the current FoW where it only reveals the map layer?
As much as I like the ability to know where we explored, I like the uncertainty that DL causes.  I have seen players make tons of loops and retrace steps because they do not have an open map. Then a new player joins and starts scrawling on areas where they explored.  This way they have their own icons that detail where and what they saw if they want. I just wish the tools for DL were more flexible.  Like an erase tool that isn't the 'shape' drawn erase style that is currently employed.  If you had a line or box eraser, you could overlap as many shape boxes to set perfect geometric boundaries, then erase intersected room divisions to allow smooth lighting. I also wish DL had a freehand tool for drawing the line.  I use a wacom and it makes things a lot easier, but odd shapes would be nice to properly handle.
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With the current system i occasionally implement "memory torches/ memory wisps" to allow PC's to recall the general locations of "that damned door". I grant sight & control by all players to one torch, or a small dim-light radius (10/-5) & sight to some other piece of dungeon flotsam near the landmark (sometimes I use a wisp token). This allows characters to zoom out and see those landmarks, if not the exact path to get there. My players say just those "points of light" help them to get their bearing. It can take several sessions for players unfamiliar with GM controls to realize that if they can see there, it means there's a token they can move... which caused some disruption for one session (not as bad as my players learning they could draw on the map) but for the most part my players have been good about not touching tokens they aren't supposed to move. If it's a problem; suspend the privilege, or make said tokens controllable only by a list of players not including specific problem players. The downside of course is that flanking forces have to be moved in the GM layer. I usually use one GM layered marker to keep track of a whole force, & move other tokens in from behind walls as the force is discovered. A map-only vision setting as has been discussed here would still be an amazing addition to the GM's toolset.
When I first started using dynamic lighting there was indeed a freehand tool for the dynamic lighting layer. Because "freehand" lines exist as many many (thousands? millions?) of straight lines connecting points; placing those lines in the dynamic lighting layer where the dynamic lighting system has to calculate vision based on them caused the game to lag down to a crawl, ruining one of my games until i got that sorted out. It is a huge relief to see that pit trap removed. I've toyed around with a couple different ways of handling the dynamic lighting, and my players have agreed that they much prefer to see the walls, leading me to develop a method I call "sharp corners." I draw a rough polygon shape outside the walls of the dungeon, allowing players to see the walls as illustrated by the map artist, with short spikes inward any place that corners would natrualy limit a player's vision. For pillars and the like i simply draw exes, (which are handled much better by the dynamic lighting system than circles or boxes) allowing players to see up to half of the pillar without seeing through it. "Sharp Corners" works extremely well, with a couple of fairly obvious flaws a) thin walls and secret doors are very easy to tell. This can sort of be overcome with use of cropped tiles to temporarily cover the secret spots (more prep work) but also pretty much leads me to relying heavily on an honor system when thin walls seem a little more telling than they should be. b) occasionally on cave maps the floor and wall blend together, making it hard for some players to tell whether or not a visual square is a traversable square.
With the current system i occasionally implement "memory torches/ memory wisps" to allow PC's to recall the general locations of "that damned door". I grant sight & control by all players to one torch, or a small dim-light radius (10/-5) & sight to some other piece of dungeon flotsam near the landmark (sometimes I use a wisp token). This allows characters to zoom out and see those landmarks, if not the exact path to get there. My players say just those "points of light" help them to get their bearing. It can take several sessions for players unfamiliar with GM controls to realize that if they can see there, it means there's a token they can move... which caused some disruption for one session (not as bad as my players learning they could draw on the map) but for the most part my players have been good about not touching tokens they aren't supposed to move. If it's a problem; suspend the privilege, or make said tokens controllable only by a list of players not including specific problem players. The downside of course is that flanking forces have to be moved in the GM layer. I usually use one GM layered marker to keep track of a whole force, & move other tokens in from behind walls as the force is discovered. A map-only vision setting as has been discussed here would still be an amazing addition to the GM's toolset. This is a great idea, but I can add to it. I have found that you can move the token(torch or whatever) to ether the lighting layer, or the map layer. it will then provide light for all who are listed as controllers of the token but they will not be able to touch it as it is on a layer they don't have access to. It then takes away the need to rely on the trust thing.
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great inovating! On careful testing though, only objects in the token layer can grant sight to players or shed light visible to them; even though it may appear otherwise to the GM (at least at the plus level). This is why i always test lighting on each map via the "rejoin as player" button & assign at least one sighted token to myself (NPCs work great). Sorry/ thank you! I hoped you had something there. Got me all excited for a moment.
Kobold said: This is why i always test lighting on each map via the "rejoin as player" button & assign at least one sighted token to myself (NPCs work great). You can also use the shortcut CTRL+L. :) It allows you to see "through the eyes" of the selected token.
Kobold said: great inovating! On careful testing though, only objects in the token layer can grant sight to players or shed light visible to them; even though it may appear otherwise to the GM (at least at the plus level). This is why i always test lighting on each map via the "rejoin as player" button & assign at least one sighted token to myself (NPCs work great). Sorry/ thank you! I hoped you had something there. Got me all excited for a moment. I see what you are talking about, and yes my idea would not work for what you want it to do.  What had suggested does work for dungeon lighting. Visible torches and what not can be placed on the map layer, where lighting from unknown sources can be placed on the lighting layer, in both cases the light will be seen when the tokens have line of site.   As for your thought though, (and I really like it) to keep the torch from wandering, maybe place it in a light cage, ie put it in a box on the lighting layer made of dotted lines, It would still shed light in the areas it needs to and be visible to everyone no matter where they are, but it would not be able to move outside of its box.
Joseph I. said: As for your thought though, (and I really like it) to keep the torch from wandering, maybe place it in a light cage, ie put it in a box on the lighting layer made of dotted lines, It would still shed light in the areas it needs to and be visible to everyone no matter where they are, but it would not be able to move outside of its box. If you are that worried of you players moving your tokens around, another option could be to have a token on the token layer having only normal vision and another token on the map layer giving light. This way also if your players move the "vision token", nothing would change, as the only visible area is the one determined by the "light token". 
OMG I gotta write that "Ctrl L" tip down thank you! separating the tokens is a genius idea too... though i don't know how necessary it really is, at least for my current group.
Kobold said: separating the tokens is a genius idea too... though i don't know how necessary it really is, at least for my current group. Yeah, that's what I think as well. Since it is a little bit too much overhead, I think it would be better to talk to your players frankly, if the problem arises. Happy you found the CTRL L tip useful. May I suggest you to have a look here? <a href="https://wiki.roll20.net/Keyboard_Shortcuts" rel="nofollow">https://wiki.roll20.net/Keyboard_Shortcuts</a> There are many other very useful shortcuts&nbsp;;)
Since CTRL-L has come up, you may find it relevant go here: <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/1345896/ctrl-plu" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/1345896/ctrl-plu</a>... and vote for that suggestion
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Scott C.
Forum Champion
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Compendium Curator
+1
Riley D. said: Note that I'm talking about if we want this to work and be persistent between sessions (which I think is pretty much the only way it makes sense) -- it would be much easier to do this if we could just store the data locally and discard it when you leave the session. If local data storing meant that we got this feature, I don't think very many DMs would mind grabbing a token and running it down the previously explored areas before a game to reveal them. &nbsp;Sounds like a 30-second inconvenience for most of us. &nbsp;I would love to spend a little time before the game to save myself loads of time messing with the FoW or placing "memory tokens" all over the map.
John T. said: &nbsp; I would love to spend a little time before the game to save myself loads of time messing with the FoW or placing "memory tokens" all over the map. enthusiastically agreed. ~ ~ ~ Separately: I'm not sure I understand how "+1" works.
+1 Just started a paid membership to get DL. Yeah, realized after trying to explain to my players that most of the screen would remain black, and go back to black. Please implement this Warcraft2 method or something similar, that takes very little GM work. I already have a huge overhead of time I have to allocate for diddling up maps and tokens and whatnot, please don't make it worse. Thanks. PS: I also don't know if there's something else I have to do to "+1" this idea, other than this post...
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Alex C.
Plus
Marketplace Creator
Kobold said: John T. said: &nbsp; I would love to spend a little time before the game to save myself loads of time messing with the FoW or placing "memory tokens" all over the map. enthusiastically agreed. ~ ~ ~ Separately: I'm not sure I understand how "+1" works. Eric G. said: +1 Just started a paid membership to get DL. Yeah, realized after trying to explain to my players that most of the screen would remain black, and go back to black. Please implement this Warcraft2 method or something similar, that takes very little GM work. I already have a huge overhead of time I have to allocate for diddling up maps and tokens and whatnot, please don't make it worse. Thanks. PS: I also don't know if there's something else I have to do to "+1" this idea, other than this post... It took me a while to figure this out too ;) On the&nbsp; Forum page next to each thread, there's a blue arrow. Click on it to turn it hot pink and give it an "upvote". There's a box at the top showing how many votes you have left.
After another session where I (the GM for D&D 5e) spent as much time managing the map as I did running the game, the next day (today), I went looking for this solution and see it has been requested. I am a paying member and have been since I started running my current game. I never used FoW, just Dynamic Lighting. I also am starting to run into those who can see invisible and those who cannot. It would be great if I could some how give a condition or something, and then give another token the counter to that condition (ethereal, invisible, etc) so that this can be managed with much less headache. I would not say this is a top priority for me, but it would be in the top 5. My top is&nbsp;I would love to see all ove the D&D 5e spells and creatures ported into Roll20 officially, so I can stop referring to books when searching the content is so much faster in Roll20... but I will find that feature request and comment on it also.
Lloyd J. said: After another session where I (the GM for D&D 5e) spent as much time managing the map as I did running the game, the next day (today), I went looking for this solution and see it has been requested. I am a paying member and have been since I started running my current game. I never used FoW, just Dynamic Lighting. I also am starting to run into those who can see invisible and those who cannot. It would be great if I could some how give a condition or something, and then give another token the counter to that condition (ethereal, invisible, etc) so that this can be managed with much less headache. I would not say this is a top priority for me, but it would be in the top 5. My top is&nbsp;I would love to see all ove the D&D 5e spells and creatures ported into Roll20 officially, so I can stop referring to books when searching the content is so much faster in Roll20... but I will find that feature request and comment on it also. this one sounds like a good candidate for an API script, It strikes me as similar to the "It's a Trap" API script but effecting the field of vision instead of token collitions on different layers.
MapTool can do this right now . I would expect something you have to pay 5 bucks a month for to be better than or at least competitive with a free app.
+1,&nbsp; Very needed feature for Shadowrun / WH40k. Where players have satellite images, but not full direct view.
I am a little bummed to find out that Dynamic lighting and line of site do not already do this. &nbsp;I just gifted my GM a sub so he could use dynamic lighting right before I came and started reading suggestions.
+1
1468649336
Euphamia
Marketplace Creator
Is this still being worked on? &nbsp; Been quite some time sense this was suggested and commented on. &nbsp;Would solve allot of the Dynamic Lighting problems im running in to myself as a DM