Not to sure how I should rule on this...

I would like to think I am a fairly competent DM, one that tends to know his stuff and that which I don't I usually am able to look up. I came across something tonight that even I was unable to figure out right away and had to make a ruling on the spot about. It came down to a matter of wording in a power. This was during a D&D 4e game earlier tonight. The power in question in the warlocks Crown of Stars.  Here is the parts that are necessary to help me on. Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex Hit: 2d12 + Charisma modifier (+5) radiant damage. If target is bloodied, it is blinded until the end of your next turn. Sustain Minor: Make a Charisma vs. Will attack against any target in range. On a hit, deal radiant damage equal to your Charisma modifier (+5). The player successfully hit the creature and after the damage was resolved from this attack it was bloodied. Now where the issue arose was whether the blinding effect would take place after the damage from the attack was resolved. I ended up saying no, it would only apply if the creature was bloodied before the damage. I am a player of Magic the Gathering and tend to use concepts from it such as stack order when figuring out stuff in 4e. Anyways I just wanted to put it out there and see if maybe there was a ruling on this or a similar power that I was unaware of.

If you were basing your decision on MtG, you would have (rather, should have ) said yes. Magic cards perform their actions in the order written. So, as a Magic card, the power would deal damage and then check whether the target was bloodied. The 4e powers system is also weighted heavily in favor of the players, so that's two reasons I would have said yes.

I spent some time looking for an official answer and could not find one.   +1 to everything Brian said though about the order as written, and most of the system being in favor of players so I would have gone with yes he was blinded by the attack. The only thing close to a RAW answer was on page 92 of the Rules Compendium.   Sequence : The order of the entries in a power description is a general guide to the sequence in which the power's effect occurs.   However, making a call at the time and moving on is the best solution speed of play is important.  That is what a DM should do make the call and go with it.  By the way if you find out an official answer could you post it here so I could know it as well.

I know nothing of D&D 4th edition and how things are worded in it in general. Therefore I base my opinion on the wording and how I understand English language to work (it's not my native language so I really don't know what I'm talking about). I would say that if the target is bloodied by the attack it becomes blinded. My reasoning: If the text would say "If the target is killed..." wouldn't that mean "if the target is killed by the attack...", not "if the target was dead before the attack..."?

I'd allow it to be blinded. More fun for the player that way and you can always turn the tables on the players when you use something like that back on them.

I thank everyone for their responses. I do understand that in M:tG the effect would have taken place but while I use some concepts in my games we are not playing M:tG so I didn't want to make it a universal kinda deal. I mentioned it in my post so that people who did play both might be able to aid me easier lol. As mentioned I usually do not get tripped up by wording  that easily this is just one of those rare cases. I think what is causing me problems is other powers with similar wording all seem to use "If" before stating the condition they apply. Ex: "If you've killed a non minion this encounter", "If you hit all targets.." etc. Fourth edition is ripe with rather ambiguous wordings but I guess they just want to leave it up to the DM to interpret how they want. Once again thank you for your input :D

i say no the intent of the spell was clear if the monster was already bloody then blind  i thank you made the right call   

The wording leads me to believe the sequence of effects are as followed: deal damage, check for effect.  If they would have worded it as "if the target is blooded, it is now blinded.  Deal damage" then the sequence of events would have led me to believe that your call was correct. DnD 4e reads effects sequentially unless there is boolean logic in the ability stating otherwise.  The only logic here is the "if" statement which comes after the damage is resolved.  In this case, ruling should have gone to the player, blinding the monster after damage resolved.

You are correct in your ruling. Take a look at the level 1 Druid encounter power "Close to the Kill". Attack : Wisdom vs. Reflex Hit : 1d12 + Wisdom modifier damage. If the target is bloodied or reduced to 0 hit points by this attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to one-half your level.   Primal Guardian : Add your Constitution modifier to the temporary hit points. Published in  Primal Power , page(s) 38. This is how they tend to word it if the power gets the effect if the damage bloodies the creature.

A few quick Google searches and the only other place I found discussing this question was a thread on the WotC forums; the OP assumed that the blind happened if the attacked caused the bloodied status, and the only response to the thread agreed. Far from official, but it's all i could find. @Jarret: I disagree. Close to the Kill needs to be worded that way because it also checks whether the target was killed by the attack, not just whether the target was bloodied.

It costs the DM nothing to rule in favor of the player's interpretation when the rules themselves are absent or unclear. On that basis alone, the answer is "Yes, and the monster is blinded."

Well so far it seems that more people seem to agree that the power would in fact blind them if the attack itself results in them being bloodied. Well thanks folks, glad I got so many responses. Thanks for the help.

Old school the idea here is the PC hits the target, if the target is hit hard enough it is a light attack, so bam, blinded. Thus it is not computer logic, broken down rule by rule, but "in-game" effect.  If the target was already bloodied, why would a light attack further blind it, kicking in only if it was already bloodied?  So the intent is if the PC did enough damage, target goes blind or is dazzled, etc. Good luck.

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