Putting Humpty Dumpty back together again...

Obviously, it's going to be a Referee's call as to whether attached shuttles push us over the line from ungainly to falling light a rock. All I'm saying is that even if we get to keep the non-streamlined/standard category, we should avoid landing or skimming with the Ares. A standard-hull ship may still enter atmosphere but is very ungainly and ponderous, capable only of making a controlled glide to the surface. Getting it back into space requires an elaborate launch setup and considerable expense. A standard-hull ship may have scoops for gathering fuel from a gas giant but the process will be much more difficult and less efficient. Larger ships of this type will often carry a specialized sub-craft (such as a modular cutter, see page 135) to perform the actual atmospheric skimming. See Atmospheric Operations on page 137.                                                                                               Main Rule Book, p. 106 And A standard-configuration ship can also enter a planet’s atmosphere, but is reliant on its thrusters to keep it aloft at all times and is extremely ungainly. Pilot checks are required for all movement and suffer a –2 DM. A distributed ship must make a Pilot check at a –4 DM when it enters an atmosphere and for every minute of flight. Each check that is failed inflicts 2d6 points of damage.                                                                                                 Main Rule Book, p 137 Aside from all of that, I was wondering how much cargo space people figure their characters use. When I was trying to get a handle on just how much cargo space we actually have, I realized that while we had specified how much cargo some of the passengers and crew used, most of the where actually assumed to be using less than a low birth passenger. That is to say, while the cryoberth resident get a generous allotment of cargo space of 10kg, crew get 0kg. So I figured each of the crew member in for a full ton. After all, we each get a stateroom to ourselves and we do work hard, so we should pamper ourselves, right? Sure. And then I started actually trying to get our uncounted extras figured in and get our tonnage legit. Yeah. So, am I overthinking this? Bob, Pakkrat either of you guys want to give me a semi-official Referee hand wave to ignore crew cargo?

Being distributed: At the moment Ares is a standard hull. So not streamlined and not distributed.  Wolfen is right about the rules saying that you need elaborate launch set up to get a "standard" hull back into space. I think that would definitely be the case for a ship that had only 1G of acceleration available to it. A ship with only 1G would struggle to get off the ground on a standard planet without something else providing extra lift like wings or a space shuttle style booster. For a ship like the Ares that may not be such a big problem however. She has grav drives capable of 3Gs so I'm pretty sure we would be able to simply float up into space (at 20m/sec^2!). The trick for the ares is the lack of aerodynamic streamlining. So we're not exactly dogfighting in an atmosphere. I figured a simple landing or take of would be okay though. If you've got a Gev that is. All pilot rolls are -2 DM.  Skimming from gas giants is the same issue. Normally an unstreamlined ship would be in grave danger of being pulled into the gas giant by it's strong gravity. Streamlined ships would use their hull and velocity within the atmosphere to provide lift. Keeping in mind that the gravity in the layer where we'd be skimming hydrogen would be somewhere between 2-3 Gs. So a ship with 3Gs or more would actually be capable of hovering within the atmosphere of a gas giant if it needed to. Then you'd only have to contend with the crazy temperature variations, 100m/second+ winds and 1km+ wide bolts of mega lightning. Probably better to keep moving. The classic adventure Broadsword talked about this class of ship being able to skim fuel from gas giants. Also mentioned that it's safer to send the cutters to go get it.  For folks who are interested (from p106) A standard-hull ship may still enter atmosphere but is very ungainly tandard and ponderous, capable only of making a controlled glide to the surface. Getting it back into space requires an elaborate launch setup and considerable expense. A standard-hull ship may have scoops for gathering fuel from a gas giant but the process will be much more diffi cult and less effi cient. Larger ships of this type will often carry a specialized sub-craft (such as a modular cutter, see page 135) to perform the actual atmospheric skimming. See Atmospheric Operations on page 137 I always felt that skimming was a bad idea when carrying paying passengers. Firstly because it's not safe. Second because it ads days onto the trip, first because of the long flight in toward a gas giant from it's 100 diameter limit, and then flying to a systems main world - usually at least a 3 day trip at 3Gs. I guess it could be a cool "tourist" gimmick though? About shuttles not being streamlined ... this gets a bit confusing. There are two Shuttles. One in the Main Rulebook, and one in High Guard. The one in the Main Rulebook wasn't constructed with any real system. I'm pretty sure it was just put together with stats from previous versions of Traveller. The one in High Guard seems to be a different kind of vessel with a distributed hull. According to the description the shuttle in High Guard says its hull is "distributed" and for transferring cargo between high ports.  Even the image is of a very different kind of ship. But then they go and put airfoils on it's distributed hull!? The stated price for the hull is for a standard one ( 1.9 Mcr ) and not for a distributed one ( would be 1.71 Mcr ). Yeah I got no idea. But considering that the difference between a small craft's streamlined hull and a distributed hull is only a matter of cost and not tonnage ( p56 High Guard ) I guess we could make a High Guard version of the Main Rulebook shuttle by adjusting the hull price of the High Guard shuttle. Everything else looks about the same. A streamlined 90 ton hull would cost 1.9Mcr +10%. So 2.09Mcr. Only 190,000cr extra.  I figured that as long as everything is detached before the Ares attempts to enter an atmosphere then it'd still count as a "Standard" hull. There is nothing saying that it should count as anything different. Logically it should probably be treated as "distributed" if it has other ships hanging off the side of it. Rules don't say so but I think that logic may... I guess that's another Ref's call?

Oh .... and DOH! You're totally right about that TL 13 sensor upgrade not being vulnerable to jamming. My bad. 

If we're not using the empty cutter wells for additional fuel, the easiest way forward would probably be with 4x 90ton ships. Two of them would be for fuel. Regular shuttles with 60tons of their cargo set aside for fuel. They could be used to skim or transfer fuel from a star port. 120 is exactly the amount of fuel we need to jump with an additional 400 tons of ship attached to the ares by clamp. 400/10 per parsec x3 is 120.   The other two 90 ton ships could be regular cargo shuttles, or 90 ton gunships ... or one of each.  Another option would be to have two Heavy Cutters and 4x 30 ton modules attached to the hull. We would then have a total of 8 30 ton modules - two in each cutter and 4 attached to the outside of the Ares' hull. if 4 of those modules were used for fuel, then that would cover the ship's fuel needs (120 tons). The other modules could be used for cargo, VIP transport, or military madness.  The first shuttle option requires 20 tons of space onboard the Ares for the clamps (5tons x4) The second option requires 24 tons (10tons x2, 1ton x4) EDIT: The down side of the modular idea is that it's harder to ditch the load if you ever need to not be "distributy". Uses more tonnage inside the Ares too. And none of these ideas have that 200ton ship Wolfen is keen on. If we go with the 200ton ship insead of two shuttles one of them needs to carry 120 tons of fuel so that the Ares can still Jump.  2nd Edit (fixed bad math)

Or you can up the amount of fuel on the sheet from 300 to 408tons. That's enough for 1x J-3 and 4 weeks or the power plant if we're hauling 400 tons. Then we can have ships clamped to the hull that are pure cargo haulers. 

How about this, inflatable fuel bags on the out side that can be retracted for de-orbit etc. it does mean u cant land with them full but it leaves all the ex fuel space and cargo on the inside for extra cargo. or if we want to do double jumps the external fuel bladders could be used as drop tanks. but hay i think we are starting to circle here.

I was thinking about this today... If we're keen on dropping the cutters and hauling up to 400tons of extra ship using Docking Clamps then we're going to need extra fuel. The amount of fuel used per parsec goes up from 80 to 120 with 400 extra tons being hauled. That's 360 tons for a J-3 trip. With enough fuel to keep the power plant going for 4 weeks that comes to 408 tons of fuel we need in total.  So if we're getting rid of both cutters and both modules, we gain 160 tons to play with.  If we section off one of the cutter wells and both module areas and use them for fuel, that gives us an extra 110 tons of fuel. Add that to the 300tons we already hold and that comes to 410 tons . Almost the exact amount of fuel we're looking for!  That leaves us with an empty 50ton cutter well.  If the boss people are taking suggestions ... would love a bay weapon. The sweet thing about 50 ton bay weapons is that you can reduce the tonnage to 30 tons by purchasing them at a TL 3 levels higher than when the weapon is first available( p53 High Guard ). A rail gun is available at TL 9. So if you install a 50ton railgun bay at TL 12 it only takes up 30 tons. Also requires 1 ton of fire control and takes up one hardpoint. So we'd have to give up one of the turrets to install a bay weapon. Could convert one of the turrets on the gunnery deck into a fire control station for the bay weapon.  So if we install a 30 ton bay weapon into that cutter well, we have a neat 20 space left over to use for labs or cargo or whatever.  CLICK ON ME (1 square is 10 tons)

I'm not following your math, Alby. We currently allot only 50 dTon for each Cutter, which would include one module for each. The additional 30 dTons for each additional module was never properly counted into the official specs in the books nor in our version. That's why we've been selling off modules. On top of that, we have to deal with the displacement for the Armory, Vault and Labs that have never been accounted for. Basically, those disappointing 100 dTons that we get back from ditching the cutters are already spoken for (for Fuel primarily, and for the other things for which we still have a tonnage-"debt").  I'd love it if my math is wrong, though! Please let me if that's so.  I'm not actually married to the idea of the 200 dTon clamp and/or vessel. I think the two shuttles are a good plan, though, especially if we can find (or commission) one or both of them streamlined. The reasons that I'm prioritizing the shuttles are that everybody is for them in general, for cargo space, and for fuel skimming and storage. The additional 200 dTon ship is really just something I threw in just because we could do it. If we went without that extra 200 dTons, I believe we could do the Jump + 4 wks of operations that's standard with the 372 dTons of fuel that my newly-edited "Working Specs" tab allows. Of course that would mean only 6 total modules, 2 of which would have to be for fuel, and 2 of which really should be for cargo. We could either leave the 10 dTon clamp on so that we could tow a client's vessel (at diminished performance), or lose it to save a little bit of money and regain a bit of cargo space. Edit: math fix.

Well not recognizing the modules was our problem. I thought we should fix the problem before we go adding new stuff. Make it legal, and then chop it up with new mods. I just feel a little dirty putting existing stuff into the space we've only just made available by getting rid of the cutters. New stuff should go in there for sure. But for the old stuff I'd rather see us cull empty state rooms or something to make room for it.  We were okay. The only things that were making us illegal were the two extra state rooms, the escape pods and the luxuries. You're right about the labs, armories and vault never being included. Probably because before High Guard they weren't actually a thing in the game. That stuff should fit into the 20 tons spare on my version.  Maybe up until this point the lab adventures were taking place by converting one of our many empty staterooms? You could fast talk the armoury being a part of the ships locker which usually comes from the tonnage allocated to staterooms (0 dtons). The armoury in High Guard is if you want marines with B'Dress and uber weapons I think? If we don't have troops then we probably don't need the High Guard armoury. ... no idea about the vault. I guess before High Guard came out it was just a sectioned off part of the cargo space? With the idea I've proposed above, we have all the fuel we need inside the ship. That way the shuttles or modules we attach to the outside never need to be for fuel. It's all cargo. So if we had 4 x shuttles, thats about 280 dtons of cargo ☺♥. I thought that was a better way to go because it would mean leaving the cargo in the shuttles rather than having to transfer it into the ship, and then out again into the shuttles to unload. Avoids double handling. Also means that if the modules or ships are damaged or lost in combat we're not stranded.  How did you get 372 dTons being enough fuel? Does that include a full 400t load? I had it figured that we'd need: (800t (current tonnage)+400t (shuttles and such))/10 x3  for Jump-3 24x2 for power plant  so 120 x 3 + 48 = 408 dtons The Ares holds 300 dtons of fuel at the moment. That means to J-3 with 400 extra dtons we need to find: 408 - 300 = 108 dtons Empty cutter wells seemed like the easiest place to find that. 

With regards to skimming with passengers, you can always have them ride a shuttle back to port while the other shuttle fetches the fuel; that eliminates their risk, and the smaller ships are usually faster anyway. I think we should assume that the modifications to the Ares will allow standard landing with both shuttles attached, and distributed any other way; because we’d be sacrificing our orbital weapons platform by landing the Ares, it must be because we want everything on the ground... “Regular Cargo Shuttles” are just a soft target; everything should be designed for military grade, even if we never wind up using them that way. The last thing we need is some fragile shuttle breaking apart on us mid-combat, and then us colliding with its drives mid-maneuver. More modules are fine, if there’s room to put them, but 2 Shuttles should be plenty . Remember, the existing Cutter Wells and Cargo Module Wells make for up to 4 Cargo Modules, with 40 dTons to spare; no need to add them outside with clamps. Let’s assume that we’re keeping J-3 as a performance requirement, please. Fuel bladders only make sense for the part of the fuel you use while in-system, since you can’t take it with you without messing up the displacement. Since in-system use of fuel isn’t really that much, I think we should ignore it. I’m not a fan of the bay weapon idea without redistributing the turrets around the hull... it would leave us with a blindspot. I’ve never been a fan of the whole “Fuel Module” idea (or even “Cargo Module” as a requirement, instead of a logistical convenience); while I understand that the fuel has to be cryogenically stored, realistically speaking, the insulation wouldn’t be any different. If there’s a completely empty cargo bay there, it can be filled with fuel so long as there’s a fuel refiner to fill it. It would mean, however, that the Cutter Modules would need somewhere out-of-the-way to stay while the refueling was being done. So while we would certainly need space for 2 extra modules (or more), it seems silly to have to actually buy them.

This sheet has a legal, pre Bowman Ares with High Guard Lab, Armoury, and Vault added in.  I just figured it was a better place to start from.  LEGAL PRE-BOWMAN ARES

I would think internal/external fuel bladders would work much like drop tanks, 1 performance value with them and 1 after they are used and or dropped. It is my understanding that the fuel is burnt before jump. ( or drop tanks would be useless waist of explosive bolts.)

Yeah we were looking into drop tanks before.  You're right about fuel being "burnt" before jump. I remember seeing a write up somewhere saying that the hydrogen is forced through a singularity created by the jump drive to create a pocket in jump space for the ship to exist in. It is then drawn into that space for the duration of the jump. So in Jump your ship is pretty much swimming in a bubble of boiling hydrogen. Pretty sure that's where all that hydrogen goes. Back before write ups like that it was just that the Jump drive demanded an enormous amount of energy in order to go into jump. Either way, the fuel is all used up before the ship enters jumpspace. Otherwise drop tanks wouldn't work. 

For info. From p 43-44 of High Guard. Drop Tank: Military assault ships sometimes use external fuel tanks that are explosively jettisoned as the ship enters jump space. The virtue of a drop tank is that it allows a ship to carry a large amount of extra fuel, but the tank carries a risk. Jumping is a delicate procedure, which is greatly complicated by having big empty fuel tanks flying around in close proximity to the jump bubble. Jump tanks come in two parts. Firstly, there are the docking ports, fuel injectors and explosive collars that allow the spacecraft to mount drop tanks and to jettison them quickly. Secondly, there are the physical tanks themselves. A drop tank mount costs MCr1 per 50 tons of fuel in the drop tank, and takes up two tons of space per 50 tons of fuel for the fittings to transfer fuel. A drop tank itself costs MCr 0.1 per 50 tons of fuel space. For example, a mercenary cruiser wants to mount a 250 ton drop tank. This would cost MCr5 and take up ten tons of internal space. The tank itself would cost MCr 0.5. Jumping using a drop tank applies a –(15–TL) DM to the roll for misjumping (see page 141 in the core rulebook). When a drop tank is used, roll 2d6. On an 8+, the tank survives the ejection process and can be retrieved and reused. Otherwise, it is destroyed by the expanding jump bubble or warped by the jettison explosion. At TL14 the use of drop tanks has been improved to such a degree that drop tanks designed at this tech level or above will automatically survive use. A ship’s M–Drive rating must be recalculated when carrying a drop tank. For example, a 200–ton ship with a 150–ton drop tank counts as being a 400–ton ship for the purposes of determining its effective M–Drive rating. Round the tank’s tonnage up to the nearest hull size. Drop tanks can also be used to store fuel for other purposes, such as reaction drive propellant. The jump performance for the ship is calculated assuming that the drop tanks are not attached unless the jump is to be carried out without jettisoning the drop tanks. In this case, the jump performance should be calculated in a similar manner to the effective M–Drive rating. The power plant rating must be calculated assuming the drop tanks are not in place. Drop tanks are relatively fragile and if they are attached when the ship is attacked, they are very vulnerable to fire. A drop tank has one hull point and one structure point per 100 tons. Determine the proportion of the drop tank is of the combined ship and drop tank. When the ship is fired on, there is a probability equal to this that the drop tank will be hit, until the drop tank is destroyed. For every point of damage it will suffer hit it will take hull and structure damage as normal and automatically suffer a “fuel” hit as well to the fuel in the drop tank. For example, a 400 ton ship has a 100 ton drop tank. Until the drop tank is destroyed, any fire against the ship has a 20% probability of hitting the tank instead of the ship.

(for Wolfen) Here's the math on that cutter well idea I was talking about earlier. There are two spreadsheets there. One is the post Bowman Ares, the other is the Pimped out Ares. It includes all the features you included on your spreadsheet. Only difference is that it has 4x 5dton docking clamps instead of 2 plus a single 10 dton clamp. Tonnage would be the same though. Haven't included prices for anything yet. Just focusing on the dtons for now to make sure everything fits and makes at least a little bit of sense. PIMP my ARES!  

Sorry Tenacious, I only just saw your post.  “Regular Cargo Shuttles” are just a soft target; everything should be designed for military grade, even if we never wind up using them that way. The last thing we need is some fragile shuttle breaking apart on us mid-combat, and then us colliding with its drives mid-maneuver. More modules are fine, if there’s room to put them, but 2 Shuttles should be plenty . Remember, the existing Cutter Wells and Cargo Module Wells make for up to 4 Cargo Modules, with 40 dTons to spare; no need to add them outside with clamps. Inclined to agree with you. I'm currently knocking up a spreadsheet to run side by side with Wolfen's. My one is going for internal fuel and eliminating the need for external fuel. So all we have to worry about is how awesome our clamped on ships are. Fuel is taken care of internally.  Everything is a trade off in Traveller. If you make a ship tougher, you're sacrificing money generating cargo space. I'm thinking it could be cool to have two civilian level cargo shuttles and two 90 dton flying tanks. So we get 140 dtons of cargo, plus a couple of escorts / combat dropships.  Either that or we run with Wolfen's idea of 2x 90 dton ships plus a 200 dton ship. Make that 200 ton ship the tough cargo hauler and the two 90 dton ships tough gunships rather than fragile cargo shuttles.  I’m not a fan of the bay weapon idea without redistributing the turrets around the hull... it would leave us with a blindspot. We really don't have to worry about blind spots. Mainly for the same reason a single turreted ship doesn't need to worry about them. Removing a single turret from the Ares still means we have overlapping arcs of fire on all side. It's just that one arc is only covered by two turrets instead of three. I think that's a small problem we can live with in order to gain fire power of this magnitude. Once they witness the fire power of this fully armed and operational ball of death they're probably going to poop their pants and surrender anyway.  I’ve never been a fan of the whole “Fuel Module” idea (or even “Cargo Module” as a requirement, instead of a logistical convenience); while I understand that the fuel has to be cryogenically stored, realistically speaking, the insulation wouldn’t be any different. If there’s a completely empty cargo bay there, it can be filled with fuel so long as there’s a fuel refiner to fill it. It would mean, however, that the Cutter Modules would need somewhere out-of-the-way to stay while the refueling was being done. So while we would certainly need space for 2 extra modules (or more), it seems silly to have to actually buy them. I think the deal with the the cutter fuel modules is that they included fuel scoops. Pretty sure that's why they cost a Mcr. 

Nice Alby, but I'd like to clear up a couple of minor points before we go forward. I don't especially care whose spreadsheet we use to work out our ideas, but I think it makes sense to do it all in the Artemis Company Documents workbook. Half of our players have a hard enough time finding their way to one central Google Sheet.  ! think everybody agrees that we want to get back to Jump-3. Don't worry about the fuel numbers from my post, that was an offhand hypothetical if we were running with only 1000 tons altogether. We currently have 13 occupied staterooms (single-occupancy) without any extra passengers (aside from our regulars). In addition to the regular dTons for each stateroom, cargo space has to be set aside for each passenger, including crew and our regulars: High Passage: 1 dT, or Mid: 100 kg. I don't necessarily think we want to have a whole lot of passengers around most of the time, but I'd like to make sure that we can transport the occasional patron or other wealthy customer around. I'm not sure that we really need to bother with Mid Passage, though. I see that you've got 6 tons down for a Vault, with 5 tons of storage space within. The High Guard vault is 12 dT and takes 6 tons within. Do you have a different source? I would imagine that we could go with a half-sized vault with a total of 6 dT and room for 3 tons inside. We really don't use it all that much. As far as the armoury goes, I'm less concerned about the "stock" gear that goes in it than I am with making sure that we have a centralized, secure place to put all of our extra weapons. Do keep in mind that we probably have several tons of gear set aside in our Ship's Locker. We may not need to worry about stuff, but I wanted to mention it.

I think we've (mostly) hammered out the Ares herself, so lets use Alby's Pimped out Ares as our base, and start trying to nail down what we're going to do for small craft. We desperately need cargo space. This Ares doesn't even have enough room for passenger/crew cargo, though I'm figuring we can work that out, if only by putting anything we can in the cargo space that we'll be getting in the small craft. On cutters and modules:  Remember, the existing Cutter Wells and Cargo Module Wells make for up to 4 Cargo Modules, with 40 dTons to spare; no need to add them outside with clamps.                                                                                             -TT Unfortunately, that's not the case. The Broadsword as presented in the books, the one from which we've built ours, listed the ship as having 77 tons of cargo space, but that was including the cutter wells (et al). Once you properly account for the cutters and the extra modules, she had only 17 tons. Then we started adding stuff, like the fuel processors, labs, etc. Ares without any new modifications actually has negative cargo space. That's why we've been selling off modules and and such. We literally don't have enough room for them.  • The open module is a customisable frame with 30 tons of excess space. The only difference between an open module and a module-less cutter is that without an installed module the cutter’s module bay is open to space. An open module provides a sealed environment for a mere 100,000 Credits and can be customised before installation (at additional cost) with staterooms, low berths, fuel tanks, weapons and ammunition, or anything else travellers could want.                                                                                         -Main Rule Book, p. 135 I'm pretty sure that we're all good with the idea of 20 dTons of clamps for small craft.  Everything is a trade off in Traveller. If you make a ship tougher, you're sacrificing money generating cargo space. I'm thinking it could be cool to have two civilian level cargo shuttles and two 90 dton flying tanks. So we get 140 dtons of cargo, plus a couple of escorts / combat dropships. Either that or we run with Wolfen's idea of 2x 90 dton ships plus a 200 dton ship. Make that 200 ton ship the tough cargo hauler and the two 90 dton ships tough gunships rather than fragile cargo shuttles.                                                                                       -Alby I think that we should try to limit ourselves to 2 or 3 additional craft simply because we really don't have enough crew as is. Minimum crew for Ares is 8 normally. Splitting the crew we have between lots of ships is going to impact the effectiveness of each. And keep in mind that we really don't have the room for additional crew aboard the Ares, not without drastically changing our living arrangements. Whose characters are interested in doubling up or limiting themselves to 100kg or less of gear? The biggest problem that I see with this approach is that we're abandoning the whole idea of the modules. Personally, I don't have a major issue with that, but I thought that some of us were pretty set on keeping and/or expanding our use of them? Without the modules, I'm also guessing that Ares is once again skimming for herself, which, all wishful thinking aside, is going to mean divesting herself of her riders and taking significant time. Assuming that we want to keep the cargo ship(s) for cargo, which I really want, the only other option I see is to have one or more small craft be tough and  capable of skimming and refueling the Ares. I'm guessing that's doable, but might require commissioning a ship.

DOH! Your right about that vault. Gag NABIT! Oh and I put 1 dton of "air" in that vault just to test out the total remaining tonnage formula. Will delete.  Are we pretending that we had that vault all along? Or would you say this 12 dton vault is an upgrade from the lockable section of our cargo area that we had pre Bowman? It kind of throws us back into illegal territory again for the pre Bowman sheet.  ... And do we really need a vault like that? Would a smaller one be better? The Vault in High Guard is designed to survive the ships destruction! Maybe we could get away with saying "this section of our cargo hold is enclosed and has a heavy locked door"? On the plans the Vault was between two bulkheads. If those bulkheads are made from crystaliron then that'd make a pretty sturdy area that'd be hard to break into without ship scale weapon damage.  Just saying ... we may not need the High Guard vault to be able to say that we have a vault.  EDIT: About fuel skimming. Collapsible fuel areas within cargo holds are a thing. I can't find any actual game specs for them but they are mentioned in a couple of places.   A merchant craft with a large enough cargo hold can carry demountable fuel tanks in place of cargo, permitting an extra Jump. ( Reft Sector p12 ) However, it is also possible to fit extra fuel tanks in a ship’s hold. Collapsible ‘fuel bladders’ and more permanent conversions are both commercially available. ( Spinward Marches p108 ) So I guess it would be possible to use the shuttles as both cargo and fuel skimmers? Would take a bit of shuffling though.  Another option would be to have two regular cargo shuttles, and one or two skimmer/passenger shuttles that have most of their space allocated to fuel but with a few tons set aside for VIP passenger transport. The skimmers could fitted be beefed up with hull reinforcement and armour to keep it safe in the high pressure atmosphere if they need to skim, as well as to give VIPs a sense of security.  I know you said we don't really have the crew to pilot 4 small craft. You're right about that. But maybe we could hire a couple of NPCs? Either that or drone them so they can fly themselves. They could simply follow a "leader" craft piloted by a sentient.  Talking about staterooms, on my sheet I ended up cutting the number of staterooms down to 16. If we're still keen for the Ares to be a passenger liner maybe the crew need to consider doubling up? On most ships that seems to be the way it goes. Having a room all to your self is a bit of a luxury. At the very least redshirt members of the crew could be sharing staterooms. 

I would say that if one little mistake is enough to throw us completely off, we should probably give ourselves a bit more leeway. Aside from that, I think if that Pakkrat OK's it, the half-size vault should be fine. But that did just remind me that we wanted to have a brig, didn't we? Maybe we can have a little safe in the armory or in the ship's locker, and use those 6 tons for a secure cell or two? Not purposely trying to be negative, but if we're going to put all of this effort into straightening everything out and upgrading, I don't want to notice a flaw the next week and have to go back to the drawing board.

Wolfen said: I would say that if one little mistake is enough to throw us completely off, we should probably give ourselves a bit more leeway. Aside from that, I think if that Pakkrat OK's it, the half-size vault should be fine. But that did just remind me that we wanted to have a brig, didn't we? Maybe we can have a little safe in the armory or in the ship's locker, and use those 6 tons for a secure cell or two? Not purposely trying to be negative, but if we're going to put all of this effort into straightening everything out and upgrading, I don't want to notice a flaw the next week and have to go back to the drawing board. Yeah .... sorry if I'm being anal about this. I just have an overactive conscience. But I think we're okay.  With a 12 ton vault the pimped out Ares still has 10 dtons available for cargo. Even more if we decide to be totally limp and chicken out of having an awesome bay weapon .... not having that would give us an extra 30 dtons.  Its not really 100% necessary to do this, but I'm trying to sort out how the cutter and module space is being allocated. Trying to put as much new stuff in there as I can and leave pre Bowman stuff out of it. If we don't go for a bay weapon then the space could look a bit like this: So there is a section toward the front/top of the ship set aside for the upgrades to the sensors. That section could also be used for a new vault with a door that opens up onto the bridge rather than the old cargo bay. Maybe that would be a little more secure? either that or we could have it toward the rear/bottom of the ship.  Down to the south/rear of the ship there is 40 dtons set aside for cargo/whatever.  This would be accessed through the "drive" and "cargo" decks. I'm not sure how much money we have, but if we paid 125% for a TL 14 Jump drive we could save 6.5 dtons. That's probably an insane amount of money for not much gain but I thought I'd mention it. EDIT. 30Mcr actually ... Yeah forget I mentioned it. 

Are you remembering to leave room for crew and passenger cargo in your numbers? Just as a guide, we currently set aside over 12 tons of cargo space for our crew and regular passengers.

Wolfen said: Are you remembering to leave room for crew and passenger cargo in your numbers? Just as a guide, we currently set aside over 12 tons of cargo space for our crew and regular passengers. Nope. On my sheet "cargo" is simply the tonnage left over once all the other stuff is counted. How that space gets distributed is on a separate blue section. Or in the orange section for stuff in the 12 ton vault.  if we need at least 12 dtons of cargo space I may have to find something to toss out. Unless we are definitely not  getting a bay weapon. In which case we have plenty of room.   EDIT: Just consoled myself about removing the bay weapon by coming up with a groovy stateroom idea. We had to cull a few state rooms so we could have clamps and such. We could "stack" new high passage state rooms in the old cutter well. Each room would have a nice round shape to it, and we could include an elevator so that passengers don't have to climb up and down ladders. Will knock together a separate sheet with this on it soon. But if we go with this idea then we'd have a clearly defined section for passengers that is totally separate from the crew areas. I think we need that. You don't want grubby engineer crew climbing up and down ladders in the background while you're engaging in fine dining. 

I know you and Vic have your hearts on big weapons, but I honestly don't think we need the bay weapon. Obviously, every time we get in a space battle, we're going to say "Sure wish we had the bay weapon about now," but that's not very often, and it's not like we're helpless as is. Of course, that's just my opinion.  Edit: Just saw your edit, Alby, and I like it the idea. This would probably also allow us have our brig and some extra storage space.

Wolfen said: Unfortunately, that's not the case. The Broadsword as presented in the books, the one from which we've built ours, listed the ship as having 77 tons of cargo space, but that was including the cutter wells (et al). Once you properly account for the cutters and the extra modules, she had only 17 tons. Then we started adding stuff, like the fuel processors, labs, etc. Ares without any new modifications actually has negative cargo space. That's why we've been selling off modules and and such. We literally don't have enough room for them. It was my understanding that the lab stuff came out of the overkill medical bay area... We don’t have the troops necessary to justify 5 beds on top of a surgery wing...

You're totally right. But that medical bay area only exists on the deck plans. It's not in the ship's specs. I get the feeling that it may have been created out of left over space from the state rooms? Staterooms are 4 dtons, but if you only represent them with 4 squares on the map then you have an additional 4 squares per stateroom to play with. Pretty sure that's where things like the mess area and the med bay come from.  Also, I think the deck plans are roughly based on the Classic Traveller Broadsword. The big difference between the Classic Broadsword and the Mongoose Broadsword is that the classic version didn't have to pay 40 dtons for an armored hull. That's a lot of space gobbled up right there. 80 squares on the Classic broadsword deck plans that shouldn't be there on the Mongoose one.  Side note - just about done knocking together a "1st Class" version of the Ares. One of the cutter bays has been given floors and made into 7 high passage staterooms. So we gained back some of the staterooms we had to cull to make room for things like docking clamps. It's like the Love Boat but with guns! No bay weapon ... sad about that but maybe our groovy small craft will make up for it? Still have to figure that out. At the moment I've set the "1st Class" version of the Ares up with 2x 5 dton clamps and 2x 10 dton clamps. So she can take two craft up to 90 dtons, and two craft up to 300 dtons. Can easily change this based on what we decide concerning small craft haulage.  So that would give us the ability to haul two shuttles/gunships, and either two 100 dton ships or one 200 dton ship. PLUS we could also haul more if we ever needed to. So if we had a single 200dton ship, we could haul another ship weighing up to 300dtons on the 4th clamp. We'd slow down to 2Gs and J-2, but if we ever needed to haul an abandoned ship for salvage, or rescue another ship with a busted J-drive, we can do it. Could also haul ships between systems for monies. Considering how much it cost us to haul those two 90 ton shuttles I get the feeling we could make some sweet profit going into the hauling business.  "1st Class" Love Boat Ares. 

DOCKING CLAMP OPTIONS beauty pageant ... Keeping the following table in mind: From p 46 of High Guard. Clamp Tonage Max Haul Mcr Note 1 10-30 0.5 Fighters or modules 5 40-90 1 90t Shuttles 10 100-300 2 Hvy Cutter  20 400-2000 4 50 2000+ 8 Note that none of these ships need to carry any extra fuel to help the Ares Jump. That's all sorted.  Prepare you judge our beautiful contestants..  1x 400 dton ship. (1x20 dton clamp) PROS Clamp can haul a ship up to 2000dtons. Our engines can haul up to 1200 additional dtons, so this clamp is more than enough. We could rescue broken down 1000 dton freighters and still jump at J-2! Thunderbirds are GO! Could be used to haul a FAT amount of freight. Navy could commission us to haul System Defence Boats for them at J-3. Bigger one's at J-2. CONS No small craft, unless the carried ship carries some. Do we have a second pilot? Needs Pilot (starship) Sack our small craft pilots. No longer need them! That may actually be a pro ... depending on your point of view.  1x 90 dton ship, 1x 300ton ship. (1x 10 dton clamp, 1x 5 dton clamp.) PROS Big haulage with bonus shuttle/gunship. CONS ... Can't really think of any.  2x 90 dton ships, 1x 200 dton ship. (2x 5 dton clamp, 1x 10 dton clamp) PROS 2 small craft with 1 large cargo ship. Either lots of cargo haulage, or cargo haulage with gunship escort. Either way looks pretty sweet. CONS We have two smallcraft pilots that I know of ( Kayleb & Izak ), but we may need to find a second pilot for 200toner? 4x 90 dton ships. (4x 5 dton clamps) PROS Either great cargo haulage with 4 shuttles, or 2 shuttles with two gunship escorts. Either way is pretty good. CONS May need to find another two small craft pilots (personally I wouldn't mind rolling up some NPCs). MODULAR OPTIONS Note that the "Modular Haulers" in these options are either 100 dton Heavy Cutters or modified 95 dton Shuttles. The Heavy Cutters require a 10 dton docking Clamp, while the 90dton Shuttle only requires a 5dton one. 2x modular haulers 2x 60 dton modules . (2x 5(or 10)dton clamps. 2x5 ton clamps) PROS Good cargo and combat options available without the need for extra pilots. CONS Not optimal use of total tonnage available. Could attach a third 60dton module. My love for symetry is the only thing that stops me from proposing that but it is an option.  2x modular haulers 6x 30dton modules (2x 5(or 10)dton clamps. 6x 1dton clamps) PROS As above, but even more flexibility. Better use of available tonnage. CONS Would probably require a pair of Grapling arms to swap out modules. Not really a huge problem. 2x modular Haulers 1x 200 dton modular hauler (2x 5(or 10)dton clamps.) PROS If the 200t vessel can take modules and swap them with the haulers, that could mean that we can have two haulers, plus additional modules that could be swapped out with the haulers or ferried into High Port by the 200t ship.  Lets the Ares get rid of all external craft so it can land or go into battle baggage free.  CONS There's not really much point to the 200t ship. The only purpose it really has is to minimize the number of docking clamps, and to rid the Ares of modules if it needs to. It can ferry the modules, but the haulers could be doing that.  INSANITY OPTION (not really suggesting this as a real option. Only putting it here because it can be done.) 4x 10 ton clamps. 4x 100dton ships - J-3, 3Gs. 1x 100dton ship, 3x 300dton ships - J-2 2Gs . 4x 300dton ships- 2x J-1, 1G.

Jacob's a starship pilot, nowhere near as good as Gev, but he could certainly do the job. Generally speaking, anybody with Pilot (small craft) 1 or better should also be able to make a go of it as well.  I like the idea of having a selection of modules clamped to the outer hull, although I'm concerned about how that works in combat. That versatility could be pretty sweet. If we decided that this option works, I think that a Heavy Modular Cutter 2M (the 100 ton military one, Merchants & Cruisers p 13) and a standard shuttle (Main Rulebook, p133) with some upgrades could probably work as our haulers/system craft.

Let's say we go with the above idea, with two system craft, each of which can carry 2 modules, and 6 additional modules clamped onto the hull, with two grappling arms to switch them around. That would allow us 12 (!) modules. I'd like to reserve at least 2 to 3 of them for cargo, but that leaves us 6+ modules we can choose. Here's a list of all the types of modules I've been able to find: Main Rulebook ATV Module  (we currently have one of these and pretty much never use it) Includes either a wheeled or a tracked ATV and the means to deposit it on a planetary surface and pick it up again later. The module can serve as an ATV storage location. It costs MCr. 1.8. Fuel Module  (We should probably have at least one or two of these) Incorporates a fuel scoop and 30 tons of fuel tank. It is usually used to ferry fuel from point to point and costs MCr. 1. Open Module (These would be our cargo containers, and could serve as the base for customized modules) A customizable frame with 30 tons of excess space. The only difference between an open module and a module-less cutter is that without an installed module the cutter’s module bay is open to space. An open module provides a sealed environment for a mere 100,000 Credits and can be customized before installation (at additional cost) with staterooms, low berths, fuel tanks, weapons and ammunition, or anything else travellers could want. 100 Kcr Merchants & Cruisers Science Module Equipped with Labs, Sensor Drones and an air raft bay, this module is primarily for planetary exploration and research. Cost: 4.6Mcr. Tanker Module  (these seem pointless when regular fuel modules are cheaper and hold a bit more. Ares has her own processors, and they're a lot faster) Can carry 29 Tons of fuel, which it can collect and refine it. One fuel purification plant is fitted which can be accessed from the Cutter. Cost: 1.4 Mcr. Salvage/Recovery Module Designed for salvage or recovery/repair operations. Cargo bay can hold up to 26 tons. Both grapple pods can move from underneath the module and up into the cargo area. Both pod access areas contain airlocks for EVA work. Cost: 3.3 Mcr High Guard Exploration Module An exploration module contains an air/raft or other small vehicle, as well as portable shelters and survival equipment sufficient to supply an exploration party for three months. It is suitable only for habitable, Earth–like worlds, and costs Mcr 1.2. Habitat Module The habitat module is a deployable base station with living quarters for an eight-person team. The module is sealed and can be used in hostile environments. It costs Mcr 4. Fort Module The fortress module is a heavily armoured bunker that can be deployed by cutter. It has living quarters for eight people, and has several small gun emplacements as well as a roof–mounted fusion turret. Fortress modules. cost MCr 8. Here are the specific types of modules folks talking about in the "Modular Cutters" thread: Alby's Thoughts: Module one is for the grunts. It has a boarding tube, is armored, and packs some decent personal scale weapons. Also has room for the grav bikes. This module is mainly for getting our ground pounders into the fight, either by hitting the dirt or by cutting into the hull of a disabled ship. Module two is a command/communications module. It'd be equipped with an advanced sensor and countermeasure suite, beefy communication gear and holographic goodness. This module has two roles. In space it's our scout. It snoops up ahead with sensors designating targets for the Ares' long range armaments like the Particle Accelerators and Missiles. On the ground it acts as a command station, allowing folks with leadership and tactics skill to contribute to a fight without actually having to be present ( Like Gorman in the APC in Aliens... but with groovy holographic gear rather than bad 80s video screens ). TT's Thoughts: An armored, secure, luxurious, "Company Heads, VIP, & Entourage" transport module, with room for a cluster of bodyguards and a steward or two An armored and armed "Dropship" module with pintle-mounted weapons, for deploying troops to hostile territory and securing the center of camp An armored "Barracks & Motorpool" module, with Bunks and Company Motorpool, for prolonged stays away from the ship An armored "Company Tent" module, with Company Mess, Briefing Room, Commander's Office, & Officer's suites, for prolonged stays away from the ship There are also 50 ton modules in the Scouts book and 100 ton modules in another book (I think it was in Fighting Books). I didn't paste those in just because they weren't the right size. I'm sure we could probably use them for ideas.

I don’t like the idea of the extra modules deployed around the hull like that... not without a complete redesign of the ship from the ground up, anyway. Realistically, it makes the ship “distributed”, which is something we don’t want. Whatever changes we make have to be something that can be integrated into the hull... yes, it can extend the hull significantly, but it has to blend with it. Otherwise, we’re not going to be able to land this thing. Any additional Cutter Modules should have to go in the Cutter Wells and be popped out as needed. I’ve also never been a fan of the idea of Cutters having some ridiculous open cutout, instead of having their own hull that the Cutter Module slips into and gets enclosed by. Which would negate the need for there to even be Fuel Modules and Cargo Modules... the latter would only exist for the sake of simplifying cargo transfer of large hauls, and not be anything like a requirement. Alby, I wouldn’t consider the Armor to be interior spaces; I would consider it to be exterior spaces. I also don’t think that the displacement should go up just because you add extra armor. :P I think we should go with 2 Shuttles, and 6 total modules, 2 of which are stuffed in the Cutter Wells to be popped out as necessary; hull modification so that the shuttles blend in with the hull the best they can, for easy enough landings. By the way, the term for a “Beauty Pageant” of Cars or Ships is “Concourse d’Elegance”. :)

There is no way to put 4 modules inside the Ares without ripping out all of the additions we've already put in, let alone adding any kind of additions. Please look at the math. Likewise, whether we think armor, vaults, labs and other items should take up displacement or not, they do . We have to make our plans and decisions based on the rules.

Generally speaking, anybody with Pilot (small craft) 1 or better should also be able to make a go of it as well Famous last worlds.  You're right though, pilot -0 is technically enough to fly the thing. But anyone can do with with a week's practice. Just a bit worried about crashing the thing into a high port when trying to dock. Or we could accidentally crash and fall down a well and break our legs ... or something.  And fair comment about sticking to the rules. Whether we like it or not, our characters and what they can do in the game is governed by the numbers on our character sheet. If we start going too far outside the rules we're instantly playing Mary Sue characters in a sad, lopsided story land. We'd rather be playing a role playing game.  If we don't like the idea of cutter modules on the outside of the hull there is an option where we have two Hvy Cutters/modified Shuttles and put the modules on a 200 dton ship. The cutters would be swapping their modules with the modules on that ship. That way, if the Ares ever needs to land or enter into combat without module baggage it can "launch all ships" and get it done. I think a 200 dton ship would be able to carry about 4x 30 dton modules, or two 60 dton Hvy Cutter modules. That's still not too bad. Could have half the modules for cargo or fuel, and the other half for military madness. We could probably get away with only 60 dtons worth of military madness and the rest cargo/fuel.  When deciding on whether we go with 30dton modules or 60 dton modules ... the 60 ton  modules could potentially hold a bay weapon ... 

Wolfen said: There is no way to put 4 modules inside the Ares without ripping out all of the additions we've already put in, let alone adding any kind of additions. Not 4 modules... just the 2 that aren’t in the other shuttles, which would total 6.

Some feedback on Alby’s Ship Build... I will always advocate that dTonage due to Armor belongs on the outside ... Let’s anticipate moving the Fuel Processors to the Shuttles. Leave the Turrets as they are, please... I worked hard to make sure that each turret would always be relevant, regardless of range, and that there would be coverage on all sides of the ship in terms of sandcasting and missile defense. Yes, I know it’s a pointlessly realistic detail... ^_^; With our current and projected allotment of Ships and Crafts, Escape Pods seem unnecessary. I say kill ’em. Can we assume that, between the Robotics and the Cybernetics Lab, Electronics is also covered? Can way pay for the equipment and materials, and assume the preexisting space is sufficient? I have always been wholeheartedly against “Ship’s Computer”s of unnecessarily large size, so I protest that the Library takes up 4 dTons instead of no physical space at all... feel free to ignore that. :P If going by “Personal Name”, “Larzamonte Charoux” should be listed as “Charoux”; admittedly, Alby is inconsistent on this when it comes to Captain Crow...

Tenacious Techhunter said: Some feedback on Alby’s Ship Build... I will always advocate that dTonage due to Armor belongs on the outside ... That would be breaking the rules though. If the rules change then we would no longer need to count the tonnage required for armour. As it is though, we need to count it. Let’s anticipate moving the Fuel Processors to the Shuttles. That's not a bad idea. At the moment the ship has 12 tons of processors on board. I tried to leave as much as it currently is as I could. But maybe later we could definitely change the location of those purifiers.  Especially if we have a dedicated fuel shuttle or fuel module. Would give us an extra 12 tons on the ship to play with.  Leave the Turrets as they are, please... I worked hard to make sure that each turret would always be relevant, regardless of range, and that there would be coverage on all sides of the ship in terms of sandcasting and missile defense. Yes, I know it’s a pointlessly realistic detail... ^_^; M'kay. The "1st Class" version doesn't touch any of the turrets. They're pretty much as they are. I think we've decided not to go with the bay weapon idea. With our current and projected allotment of Ships and Crafts, Escape Pods seem unnecessary. I say kill ’em. That's worth thinking about. Unless the pods are there purely to create a sense of safety for our passengers. In that case we could just have pods for the 7 "VIP" state rooms and let the occupants of the other 10 staterooms fend for themselves That would give us an additional 5 dtons of space. If we ditch all pods we gain 8.5 dtons.  Can we assume that, between the Robotics and the Cybernetics Lab, Electronics is also covered? Can way pay for the equipment and materials, and assume the preexisting space is sufficient? Yeah I've been swapping private messages with Wolfen about the labs. The 4 dton labs are from high guard. Each lab allows one scientist to do research in a specific field. We currently have 8 dtons worth of lab. I get the feeling that Wolfen had them in there because Simone required them for self repair and improvement? If we're just doing regular work and not "research" into a particular field of science I don't think we need a 4dton lab for it. I tried to sell the the idea of incorporating both cybernetics and robotics into a single 4dton lab. Apparently that's a no go. Cyber stuff is different to regular robot stuff. Electronic stuff could be included in both those fields I guess? I duno.  Kayleb would probably say ditch all labs and all robots. Toss it all and employ actual people do to people jobs.  As a player though .. lets lab it up! Just need to find the room for it.  I have always been wholeheartedly against “Ship’s Computer”s of unnecessarily large size, so I protest that the Library takes up 4 dTons instead of no physical space at all... feel free to ignore that. :P Well the 4dton Library is an actual piece of kit from the High Guard supplement. It's a sectioned off quiet space with holographic displays and learning aids and books. Using that dedicated learning space lets someone learn two weeks worth of skills in one week. Not bad. Not sure if it would work for physical skills like battle dress or melee combat. But great for learning stuff. If you want the bonus I'd say you'd have to pay the credits and dtons for it. We're not cheats.   If going by “Personal Name”, “Larzamonte Charoux” should be listed as “Charoux”; admittedly, Alby is inconsistent on this when it comes to Captain Crow... Sry 'bout that. Was just a quick list I knocked up to show I had allocated all crew and passengers 1dton of cargo. Can fix.  

Alby said: Tenacious Techhunter said: Leave the Turrets as they are, please... I worked hard to make sure that each turret would always be relevant, regardless of range, and that there would be coverage on all sides of the ship in terms of sandcasting and missile defense. Yes, I know it’s a pointlessly realistic detail... ^_^; M'kay. The "1st Class" version doesn't touch any of the turrets. They're pretty much as they are. I think we've decided not to go with the bay weapon idea. In that case, you may be using the wrong list... let me dig up the proper one, assuming it was ever used... Forward-Facing Turrets: 1:Beam Laser Beam Laser Sandcaster 2:Pulse Laser Particle Beam Sandcaster 3:Pulse Laser Particle Beam Missile Launcher 4:Pulse Laser Particle Beam Missile Launcher Rear-Facing Turrets: 1:Pulse Laser Particle Beam Sandcaster 2:Pulse Laser Particle Beam Missile Launcher 3:Pulse Laser Particle Beam Sandcaster 4:Beam Laser Beam Laser Sandcaster Also, did you see this thread: <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/2298358/new-ship-slash-financial-baseline-development" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/2298358/new-ship-slash-financial-baseline-development</a> ?

Thanks Tech.&nbsp; I was looking at the Company Docs version, which I thought was the official deal. This is the first time I've seen this topic.&nbsp; Poor old thing was over tonnage right from the start. The displacement of the modules were never counted.&nbsp; I've got to be honest, I found that turret configuration a bit confusing. I would have thought that concentration would be better than even coverage. It would be unusual for us to be getting swarmed from all directions. Even if they're "close" your enemy is usually&nbsp; waaaay over there, 1000s of KMs away. So you face your business end toward them and let them have both barrels ... or all 24 barrels ... or whatever. Even if you were being swarmed, you'd be better off concentrating your fire so that you can totally rend one target at a time rather than spreading your damage out evenly over many targets.&nbsp; Knowing that our fore turrets are energy weapons and that our midriff&nbsp;turrets are ordnance seems far more intuitive to me. &nbsp;You climb into a turret and you know what you're going to get. I imaging that it would also be better for the ship's pilot/commander too. You know which direction to face the craft toward in order to bring all your weapon to bear on it. Less need to tumble around to make sure every turret gets a shot at the same target.&nbsp; So ... which is the "official" configuration? The company docs or the layout on the forum? I had it in my head that the company docs were the way things were but now I'm not so sure. Crow is the "Chief Gunner" right? Did he have some kind of input into the configuration?

After today's meta discussion we pretty much ended up on the concept of using docking clamps to haul along a 200t vessel as well as a pair of 90t shuttles/gunships.&nbsp; The next volley of "idea diarrhea" is going to be about what those ships could look like.&nbsp; So far the ideas include 2x 90t shuttles for cargo, and the 200t ship as a combat support, passenger shuttle, stealthy scout ship.&nbsp; Use the 200t craft as a cargo hauler, and the 2 90t ships as combat escorts.&nbsp; Use the 200t craft to hold modules that can be swapped out with modules carried by modified shuttles / hvy cutters.&nbsp; Feel free to toss in your own ideas, but at this point we seem married to the 200 ton ship with two 90 ton ships. What we really need are ships capable of carrying cargo, skimming for fuel and of carrying passengers. Being able to hold together in a fight would be good too.&nbsp;

Alby said: After today's meta discussion we pretty much ended up on the concept of using docking clamps to haul along a 200t vessel as well as a pair of 90t shuttles/gunships.&nbsp; Gevaudan likes this idea. &nbsp;He has a 200dT Far Scout baking in the oven as of 350-1109, the one with Jump-4, Thrust-6 and is Streamlined, Fuel Scoops and its own processors. &nbsp;It'd make a good vessel for rushing Passengers to the planet while the Ares &nbsp;makes for a Gas Giant to refuel. &nbsp;It'd cut down on transit times when we don't want to stop and dock or have to land on a planet. &nbsp;It also satisfies getting six Med/High Passengers and 10 Low Passengers to the target system very fast, when time is of the essence. &nbsp;Weaponry: &nbsp;This variant is all beam weaponry in that its two turrets have a Particle Cannon and two pulse lasers each. &nbsp;It's faster than most missiles and would fit nicely on the nose of the Ares. The original Far Scout hull can be found on pg. 57 of Merchants & Cruisers. Gevaudan also likes the 90dT gunship idea. &nbsp;This orbit-to-ground piece of local combat appeals to Gev even though he's not former military. &nbsp;I liked Alby's &nbsp;image of that drop-gunship from earlier. &nbsp; Next, a utilitarian 90dT shuttle also sounds nice for doing all the other chores not worthy of an 800dT vessel's time or efforts, such as landing on a planet. As to what to do with the Ares, Gevaudan cannot say other than cargo is the breadwinner of any operating vessel. &nbsp;If docking clamps makes the Ares &nbsp;become distributed, then vessels will have to detach when it enters an atmosphere, for landing or skimming. &nbsp;And that's no bueno , even for Gevaudan. &nbsp;The Ares by itself can skim for fuel at its current 'standard' configuration. &nbsp;Tack on some attached spacecraft or starship, and the thing becomes 'distributed' no matter where you mount it "Thunderbirds Are Go!" notwithstanding. &nbsp; As for crew doubling up, ask yourself this: &nbsp;Who wants to double up with Runt or Gevaudan? &nbsp;And don't make them double up in a stateroom. &nbsp;They're socially incompatible if not racially. &nbsp;Their Tetusu-Dene Scale ratings won't permit it. &nbsp;There's too much that can cross the streams. &nbsp;Gevaudan would sooner go EVA and sleep in his Far Scout though that's impossible in jumpspace. Finally, do we have the Pilots or Pilot-Astrogators for these spaceships or starships we want to attach to the Ares while keeping the Ares properly crewed? &nbsp;Characters such as Kayleb might take umbrage to ship robots that are armed and man turrets. &nbsp;Does he also feel that way to robotic Pilots and Astrogators? &nbsp;I know that Gevaudan won't go that far in his personal book. &nbsp;Computer assistance and double-checks with his 'gator laptop is the maximum non-living help he'll accept. &nbsp;The only exception now that the truth has come out to him personally is Dr. SIMOne, who claims to be self-aware and a sentient being - ensouled if one wants to go so far. &nbsp;'She' claims to have been constructed just for such a purpose and successfully put a non-sentient copy on the RayEagle, giving it pause enough for Artemis Group to escape Bowman.

Let's just remember that whatever we do in terms of outrider vessels, all of our commercial cargo is going to have to be in them, so we'll need to make sure that we reserve tonnage for that (I'd like to see a minimum of 60 tons of usable space, preferably more), and make sure that access to that ship (or those ships) is quite secure. I'd be fine with ditched most of the escape pods, except for the 7 High Passage rooms. Not only for our passengers' peace of mind, but due to the fact that we're specifically planning on making sure that passengers can't get into the parts of the ship that access the outriders (et al). If we're going to use Gev's scout as our 200 dTon ship, what's its cargo capacity again? Or are we going to consider that to be our utility/gunboat/skimmer?

Alby, as far as distribution and coverage go, the key thing was to divide up the Pulse Lasers and Sandcasters for defensive coverage on all sides. Those things genuinely can’t be concentrated, because then you’re vulnerable to flanking by 2 or more ships. Considering we’ve gone up against 3 ships before on more than one occasion (albeit, commanded by one idiot or another), we should assume that flanking is a serious possibility. Also, gunners generally gun in the same turret they always do...

With regards to the 200 dTon ship mounted on the nose, the part I’m not clear on is what capabilities it gives us that we wouldn’t already have with the Ares and the shuttles. What is the use-case that justifies it? I really don’t see what makes it necessary . There’s a case to be made for delivering Gev’s brand-new Scout,“The Golden Parachute”, sure, but other than that... ? Otherwise, we should just have the scouts and a hull modification to keep it Standard Configuration.

Smells linger in spacecraft far longer than they do in houses and buildings... they just don’t have enough ventilation. So while Charoux might think he’d find Gev easy enough to get along with as a roommate, dinners notwithstanding, the inevitable sensory assault would be too much. XD Seriously, though... we should all have our own stateroom, and have a brig for people we can’t turn over to the authorities just yet.

I think you're assuming that humans don't smell more than Vargr do. Pretty sure they have no sweat glands. And seeing that Gev has a more acute sense of smell I think he'd be the one more likely to be complaining about the smell! The primary idea behind the attached craft is to maximize the amount of cargo we can carry. It's all about the monies.&nbsp; Equally important roles for the attached craft include fuel skimming and passenger transport.&nbsp; The idea of the craft being used for combat support has also been kicked around.&nbsp; I've been messing around on the spreadsheet with a couple of 200t ship ideas. One of them can haul up to 165 dtons of cargo. That's a small fortune generated each trip if we play it right. Seeing that whatever ship carrying the cargo is also going to be ferrying the passengers we should probably set some of that space aside for passenger accommodation.&nbsp; If the 200t ship isn't used for cargo, the two shuttles could be. Between them they can haul about 140 dtons (about 70 each). Because small craft are so fragile I'd personally prefer it if the small craft were the tough ones, and the 200t ship was a tough cargo hauler. It's harder for the 90t ships to be tough and be able to haul cargo.&nbsp; During the meta we pretty much agreed that the Ares should be baggage free when she needs to be "undistributed". So the idea of having ships attached rather than modules was more popular.&nbsp; About the point defense coverage, again the missile is being launched from 1000s of kilometers away. If we've already got the business end of our ship facing toward the enemy then we've got full anti missile laser fire. Not just one turret but all 4. If the business end isn't facing toward them when the missiles are launched then ... we could make it so. Missiles take a while to hit. As for the Sand we currently have one on all 4 sides around our midriff. That pretty much covers every arc.&nbsp; Just keen to know if the company doc was some kind of executive decision to put the energy weapons up front, or if it's old news and the forum trumps it.&nbsp;

Well, as a human, I can only comment from the perspective of a human... XD The Ares should be Undistributed while carrying the additional ships. If sufficient modifications can’t be done to manage that, then we simply need a different ship. The port fees for having all these ships around separate are going to be ridiculous. Attaching an external 200 dT ship just for cargo is a bad plan; if there’s no other justification for it, we need to scrap that idea and move on. Let’s focus on having tough, combat-ready shuttles that can additionally haul as much cargo as is manageable. The pulse lasers and sandcasters are distributed so we can defend from missiles and lasers fired from all sides simultaneously, which is likely to be the case during a realistic engagement. Maneuvering to defend one side after another is a bad plan.

Why is attaching an external 200 dT ship just &nbsp;for cargo a bad plan? That's how we make our money.

Because we might as well buy a 1200 dTon ship instead with room for 2 shuttles; that’s why. If there’s no advantage to having an additional ship, and we just need more space , then we should just get a bigger ship .

Personally, I'd be willing to consider a new, bigger ship, but I don't know how the other owners would feel. Not to mention that upsizing would probably have as many drawbacks as getting a few more smaller craft. I did actually send Pakkrat a PM earlier asking him a couple of questions in hopes of finding our way out of this quagmire. Among them was asking what kind of timeframe we would be looking at to sell and replace the Ares with something bigger. That was my first concern regarding a move like that - time.&nbsp; That's not to say that I'm ready to assume that the board will go ahead on the idea, of course. In the end, though, I'm not sure getting and crewing a new ship will be any less complicated or sticky.&nbsp;

Just some random reasons: We're using our current ship's full potential. Our ship has the ability to pull more tonnage. To not be using her ability to do that seems wasteful. There was an idea to spend money down grading everything. Upgrading seemed like a better idea though. With a couple of clamps we can vastly increase our profits and flexibility.&nbsp; The ares is a war ship, not a cargo ship. But Hauling another ship lets us work as both.&nbsp; Attaching more ships lets more people do stuff. We currently have pilots that don't fly stuff and other space skills that are under utilized. We have folks with broker skill limited to a tiny amount of cargo space. Adding these ships gives our group's players more potential to actually play out the role of their characters.&nbsp; I think it kind of looks cool. We huddle together to jump, and then break off to go our separate ways if we need to after exiting jump space. Or we could all just piggy back to wherever.&nbsp; I think "just getting a bigger ship" would be const ineffective. I don't know how much money the company has right now, but getting back half of what the Ares is worth would only give us enough money to buy a ship that's half as good as the Ares.&nbsp; I think everyone has a different idea of what's cool. Example: Gev what's to scurry off in a faster ship. Sebasitan needs more cargo space. Kayleb would rather we go back to being a mercenary unit. We're tugging in a bunch of different directions. Vic seems keep to zip about in a fighter. At some point we have to commit ourselves to going for the option that keeps the maximum number of players happy. For now this one seems to be it. We've got cargo, we've got small craft ... we've got more mission flexibility ... seems like a winner.&nbsp;

I think that's the best approach, too, Alby. LIke I said, I'd be willing to consider a bigger ship, but I've been looking tonight and I don't see a standard hull in the 1,000 to 1,200 ton range that would suit our purposes. At least not one that wouldn't end up at least as much modding as the Ares to do the same job. We'll have to wait until we can get some of the owners to chime in.