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In Regards to SoundCloud

1474953036
Nolan T. J.
Roll20 Team
Simon O. said: There is not much you can do if you are reliant on 3rd party services. But I wonder if you spoke with them multiple times, and even had fears of this a year ago, what have you been doing up until now to search for alternatives? Best case scenario for me would be that I can stream music that my players hear (like dropbox, google drive integration or simply from my own HDD) Our  September of 2015 update laid groundwork for us to be less reliant on 3rd party services and more able to pursue audio licensing agreements. We have several options which will now be priotized. 
1474955997
Simon O.
Translator
Good to hear Nolan :)
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Edited 1474961221
Nolan, I appreciate your responses and letting us know about future plans. I can see how this was largely SoundCloud's call,  as I checked out SoundCloud's Blog which explains the recent changes to their API and API terms . I've respectfully tweeted them about this, it's their service so they can do as they like, but its super disappointing they've chosen this course. (I speculate that if there is no technical reason that inhibits their service, this decision has some monetary reason behind it - for them.) Music is/was a feature that really enhanced my virtual game experiences both as a player and GM. While there are many other really awesome features that I love and appreciate too, losing this one does hurt - a lot. Especially for games where music/sound elements feature prominently. I particularly appreciated the ability to use Soundcloud for my original content (had files ready for upload) and to play selected music/sound effects layered for specific effect. At any rate, I'm really glad working on this is a priority for the Roll20.net crew and that you've been forthright and timely with your response to the issue and the news with us. (edits for typos)
1474960787
Whichever the next option will be, ensure that the possibility of uploading your own tracks to be included.  And yes i have been crafting a campaign for about 3 years. And i've done so far ahead of the players adventure. I had music for every dungeon, every region, every battle, BBEG battle, scenes, weather and other ambiences as well as effects. Im talking 800+ tracks and i am just devastated by these news.  Tabletop Audio is very limited, i've yet to check out BattleBards but even if they are dedicated to tabletop fitting music i doubt they'll have the same amount of choices as SoundCloud. Hence why i think the possibility of uploading your own stuff that'd be amazing.  The best thing would be if there could be a more organized library of music, where roll20 users can share with everyone.
I have to say, I don't want to stop using Roll20 just because of SoundCloud, I will try playing with the Tabletop Audio stuff for the time but this discourages me a lot... Hope you guys find a solution soon.
So, yeah, I created background music tracks specifically to be used in roll20, the few follower I had also used those works specifically for roll20. I did tell Soundcloud about my dissatisfaction of their decision, but I dont expect much to come from it, the suits dont care in the end. In the end my post here is really pointless Im just venting at this point.
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Edited 1474987600
So a reasonable deadline on when we will have a viable solution? Cause I will not play and stream "poor" games. All proposed alternatives can be workarounds, but a solution that is not integrated with roll20 doesn't really work for me. I've configured attacks and spells to have sound effects via API. And objects such as doors and the like have their FX as well. I must cancel all my games until this is resolved. Edit: Some easy to implement sugestions: A searchbar for tabletop audio Include all the tabletop audio sound effects of the SoundPads to roll20.
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Edited 1474990927
To the roll20 developers and owners: If money is the issue, which most of the times it is, then I can tell from a customer perspective, and also from someone who is not a programmer, that I find the 9.99 USD monthly fee not really that good, and with no real added value; I do believe the 4.99 fee is really good because you have the light effect which is really nice addition, plus the storage, that monthly fee is perfect, so as a customer who wants to keep using roll20, I would recommend having an adjustment on the monthly fees as follows: 4.99 fee, with the same features as it is now. 6.99 fee, with the FX options: beams, smoke, etc., plus the same features included in the 4.99 fee 9.99 fee, including the API plus the sfx from soundcloud, and that should pay whatever fee soundcloud is asking for I will keep paying the 9.99 fee because that is something all my players agreed to pay, but if I was paying that fee by myself, definitely I wouldnt pay it, I think it is too expensive for what we are receiving, considering not all your customers are programmers and some scripts dont work as expected. I hope this makes sense. Thanks, Moises H
Moises H. said: To the roll20 developers and owners: If money is the issue, which most of the times it is, then I can tell from a customer perspective, and also from someone who is not a programmer, that I find the 9.99 USD monthly fee not really that good, and with no real added value; I do believe the 4.99 fee is really good because you have the light effect which is really nice addition, plus the storage, that monthly fee is perfect, so as a customer who wants to keep using roll20, I would recommend having an adjustment on the monthly fees as follows: 4.99 fee, with the same features as it is now. 6.99 fee, with the FX options: beams, smoke, etc., plus the same features included in the 4.99 fee 9.99 fee, including the API plus the sfx from soundcloud, and that should pay whatever fee soundcloud is asking for I will keep paying the 9.99 fee because that is something all my players agreed to pay, but if I was paying that fee by myself, definitely I wouldnt pay it, I think it is too expensive for what we are receiving, considering not all your customers are programmers and some scripts dont work as expected. I hope this makes sense. Thanks, Moises H So you're asking roll20 to cut money from their profits to pay a fee to Soundcloud, even though you have no idea how much Soundcloud may or may not want in fees? As you said, you're not a programmer, so as someone who is, I will say that 9.99 a month for the service we get as Pro members is excellent. There are always things that roll20 can improve on, obviously, but the system they have and the capacity and capabilities of that system are well worth the money.
1474992667
Arthur B
Pro
API Scripter
I agree with Liam. The current fees are more than fair and you get quite a lot in exchange. Thus said, I want to add that I really appreciate the open and transparent communication from the roll20 team towards the community / the customers. Working jn communication myself, I have seen so many companies failing at this very issue. Suddenly, when there is a rather minor problem, many companies just stop communicating out of fear that they might say something that they're held responsible for afterwards. But that makes things just worse, and a little problem turns into a huge shitstorm. So I hereby want to thank for the open communication and the "look behind the curtains". Well done!
1475003376
Robert R.
Plus
Marketplace Creator
Moises H. said: To the roll20 developers and owners: If money is the issue, which most of the times it is, then I can tell from a customer perspective This is really kind of an insane issue that's more complicated than I go fully into, but I'll try to summarize why streaming media in general has been undergoing lightning-fast policy changes (often causing train wrecks) in the past year below here.  It's kind of interesting how the dominos have fallen.  Soundcloud's aggressive policy changes are likely 50% because of what I'm writing below and 50% motivated by their lack of profit / dreams of Spotify glory rather than advertising their own strengths. --- To back it up, I have to begin with the single most important thing to happen to the tech sector in years:  ESPN under performed by a few % in their yearly earnings.  This turned the industry upside down and in some indirect way is likely why we're here. It was a watershed moment, because it was when analysts realized that cable TV is on life support.  Up until then, most investors were kind of out of touch - new media was "emerging" and not worth serious investment, while old media was "reliable."  This upset that balance.  Now the line of thinking of most people who invest the millions that drive the whole sector is new media is *here*, while old media is on life support.  They are, of course, not incorrect: ESPN was the straw that broke the camel's back as cable companies lose more and more subscribers, and digital services gain more.  Things like Netflix are outperforming old media, and those that finally took a step up like HBO and made HBO Go unassociated with a cable package saw huge boons. Now we get to the problem:  More money means more eyes on what was "new media."  I mentioned Youtube earlier; much of what's been going on is Youtube looking at their situation and going "Oh, hell," when they see how many "non-desirables" are on their site, in particular when they are bleeding money.  Advertising companies are still playing by old media rules and refuse to pay as much money for ads on Youtube, so Youtube has been trying to "clean up the site," and homogenize everything. Soundcloud will likely be going the same route, though it is chasing Spotify's model instead.  Thus niche things that could even veer anywhere near a potential DCMA issue even on a remote possibility, or are taking bandwidth while circumventing ads - something I am sure many people were NOT HAPPY with about Roll20 on their end - the new policy will most likely be "Shoot first, ask questions later."  It wouldn't surprise me that if in a year's time Soundcloud was primarily a mainstream music service (the deal earlier this year where they signed artists and have paywall music paved the path).  I also wouldn't be surprised if they are bankrupt in two years, because like Youtube, Spotify -bleeds- money; both are an example of "too big to fail." What could have maybe saved the arrangement? Two things. If Roll20 required the GM to actually have a premium subscription -to Soundcloud- (not to Roll20 then paid to Soundcloud), or if Roll20 agreed to run full on minute long advertisements for Soundcloud at multiple points throughout a session. Neither option is acceptable, I think you'll all agree, so in their eyes everyone here was a leech - the fact we'd often go to the site itself, or the fact I was taking to using their service a lot on my phone, is overlooked.  The fact I actually, ironically, was going to go for Soundcloud premium this week because their app is good on Android - all because of Roll20 - says a lot. Anyway, this is a big of a lengthy ramble and there's a lot of cause and effect left out but this is why the whole climate in the entire sector has changed and will continue to change, probably for the worse.  For those that just want a tl/dr:  Streaming media was ignored by serious investors, big industry shakeup happened, now serious investors are looking DIRECTLY at streaming media and are dictating changes, starting with eliminating anyone who does not gain them direct profit.  (This is short sighted and stupid, as I have gotten a lot of people on Soundcloud BECAUSE of Roll20, but greed is blinding).  ED:  In case you're wondering why this is different than previous Old vs New Media issues, i.e. record companies trying to stay relevant as they are less and less so, it's because we're not just talking the companies looking at this stuff anymore.  To use TV as an example again, Time Warner is powerful.  But the people who are the largest investors in Time Warner are *more* powerful, really.  The former would tell you their industry is fine, but the latter knows it's not, and the latter can hit them right in the wallet.  Expect an odd several years as the transition happens, across -all- modern media.
1475004009
Robert R.
Plus
Marketplace Creator
Also for a more practical post to the discussion at hand, one of our players found this: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey_agt5nxn0" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey_agt5nxn0</a> You will have to buy the virtual audio cable, or find some similar free software as I'm sure something like it exists elsewhere, but we've found this to work quite well.&nbsp; I had reservations about audio quality going in given how music on TeamSpeak usually sounds horrible, but it is not too bad.&nbsp; If your group uses TeamSpeak, I'd recommend you give this a try.&nbsp; You can run multiple media files on the virtual line, by the way, so layering SFX is still possible.
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Edited 1475006380
From what I am seeing on the Soundcloud side of things, the issue is in allowing their users to monetize their personal content and protect their rights to their own media. At its core Soundcloud is designed to be a tool to allow small artists a way to cheaply and effectively distribute their audio content and (eventually) to seek monitization for that content. As a content creator, if I were using such a service to show my new songs and that went into a published and monetized game without me getting a cut, I would be furious. Hell, this already happens with the content I do create (my battlemaps) despite my open distribution license preventing commercial use, yet I still see my maps show up on monetized videos. Unlike me, Soundcloud actually has immediate agency to effectively protect their content creators, which are their primary source of real revenue. The site is ultimately designed for people to produce new content, after all. On the other side of things, most Roll20 users with Soundcloud accounts are unlikely to be them (paid or otherwise) to create new content but to host other content with a range of dubious legality of distribution. I know I personally pulled from Soundcloud major soundtracks from video games and movies on an extremely frequent basis over original content. Pretty much every GM I know in the community, and most those posting here, were doing the same. There may be a bunch of individual exceptions to this, but if creating new content were the rule the trending music on Soundcloud would be very different indeed. This sorta means that Soundcloud's end-use from Roll20 is breaking their long term model in two ways: 1) It is distributing original content without compensation to users. 2) It is encouraging owned content and increasing the DCMA threat to Soundcloud. The only real solution Soundcloud could go with to appease Roll20 users wouldn't solve the DCMA threat on their side of things. Soundcloud wants to continue their business model, and that isn't focused upon being the new Napster. Even if Roll20 users were a substantial amount of their paid services they would still be a liability from their stated framework. There is no "its a shame" here, It's simply not what Soundcloud is doing. And that is super fine! It's inconvenient for us, but far more so to them. I don't personally see this as the environment changing "for the worse" except in terms of allowing unlicensed use of content you don't adequately own to continue unchecked. The attention garnered from the effects you are observing isn't a bad thing for anything aside from eliminating the gray-to-black morality of pirated content. That sucks from a non-content creator level who wants free and high quality stuff, but for the artists making those songs to the folks making the maps, concept art, and tokens swiped off of Pinterest for your local games it's a great thing. Long term they will be able to actually produce new content and get credit for it. Right now services like Patreon help a lot, but not enough to really fund the folks making your games possible do what they do long term. That's part of why I hope the long term solution here ends up being a way to create and post audio content on the marketplace, because I would eat that up with a spoon. This community has so many great and amazing people, I would love to see what they can do and ensure they get paid for it.
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Edited 1475008113
Robert R.
Plus
Marketplace Creator
Here's really the thing:&nbsp; None of that applies to SonudCloud too much, or their reasoning behind this decision. SoundCloud isn't like Spotify where the artists get a cut of the ads.&nbsp; They use the ad money to stay alive.&nbsp; All the small artists that put their work on Soundcloud are doing so entirely for recognition, and that's why big artists only put a sampling of songs there.&nbsp; The majority of songs on Spotify even have a Download button to legally, directly, and through Soundcloud download the music (though that may vary if the music itself is not legal).&nbsp; A small artist, say, Flash Arnold is not making money on Soundcloud hits, be they from Roll20 or me.&nbsp; A hit is a hit in their case.&nbsp; In fact in many cases they are paying for their content to be on there.&nbsp; The only exceptions to this are the premium artists, which are already behind a paywall. Then when you compound this whole thing with the same laws designed to protect home screenings of movies and music with digital streaming law, you hit something of a train wreck.&nbsp; Some time this will probably get addressed in a more high-profile case, but there is a strong similarity between the ability to play a CD at your house for friends, and being able to play a music file for the same number of people, doing the same activities, just digitally and that water is murky as all hell right now. Ultimately though Soundcloud has zero interest in protecting the artists here.&nbsp; They cut Roll20 because without ads and without any kind of way for Roll20 people to need Premium accounts they want to sell so bad, it was leeching gigs and gigs of bandwidth for, in their eyes, no direct benefit.&nbsp; They could try to sell it as such, but really, they wanted to shut down other games from doing it.&nbsp; I mean what if someone made a smash hit, ten-million-selling copy of a rhythm game that used Soundcloud to populate it's data?&nbsp; Soundcloud would loose millions and they'd gain it, for no reason whatsoever.&nbsp; Hell, it what if someone made a flash game that went viral that did the same thing? It's nice to think there's lofty ideals, but this is looking for #1, pure and simple; and kind of shooting themselves in the foot in the process.&nbsp; There could have been solutions to make everyone happy, possibly. ED:&nbsp; Soundcloud also takes zero action against the dozens of sites which can rip any Soundcloud song, even the ones with download turned off.&nbsp; They do not care about the artists, here.&nbsp; If you download the song and misuse it, that's not even their problem.&nbsp; Roll20 themselves the problem got worse as they got bigger; more people, more drain.&nbsp; It's a sad reality but the situation really wasn't good for Soundcloud on paper, and instead of working out a deal, the axe was dropped too early.&nbsp; I'm sure Roll20 could have come to some kind of mutual agreement, like playing a Soundcloud ad during the boot, or allowing Premium Soundcloud GMs to access additional features or the like.
1475010983
I really liked the audio feature. &nbsp;Cannot wait to see what you guys come up with. &nbsp;It is a shame for the time being because as the DM it really helped me set the mood for the players and keep everything in one place. &nbsp;I also already messaged SoundCloud as I think most of these free to listen sites make money and give nothing to little to the artist.&nbsp;
Why don't you just add YouTube links instead Soundcloud?
1475013001
Scott C.
Forum Champion
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Belial said: Why don't you just add YouTube links instead Soundcloud? See the earlier discussion about youtube's requirement that apps not divorce audio/video components .
1475017712
chris m.
KS Backer
Ben from syrinscape would love to talk to you guys about integration..
I've also spend hours upon hours on Jukebox music, was sad to log into my campaign today and explore why my log on map music didnt load T_T.
1475031478
While I too used SoundCloud pretty heavily in my campaigns, I hope you GMs reconsider canceling your upcoming games... Don't punish your players for SoundCloud decisions! &nbsp;I can understand those who record/stream, but the players can probably enjoy the heck out of your game regardless if there is mood music or not.
Jake M. said: While I too used SoundCloud pretty heavily in my campaigns, I hope you GMs reconsider canceling your upcoming games... Don't punish your players for SoundCloud decisions! &nbsp;I can understand those who record/stream, but the players can probably enjoy the heck out of your game regardless if there is mood music or not. You say that, but the only thing we can do as a community is to stop using the service unless a solution is provided. This goes for both Roll20 and Soundcloud. Both parties did poorly on their own respects. The devs have apparently known the conflict between Soundcloud and how they were being grandfathered, this problem should have been looked into a year ago instead of now when it broke. Soundcloud showed poor practice for pulling the plug overnight. As a user and GM I can show my disappointment to both by cancelling games on roll20 and Pro on soundcloud. Players might not be guilty but this fuels more people to boycott until a solution is found. It's sad, but no one will take action if we stay content with the current status.
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Edited 1475050893
After reading the posts in this thread and understanding those who wants to turn the jukebox into a paid option... please consider it, a vast majority of the players and gms loves roll20 because it has many cool features for "f2p" members and the soundcloud jukebox was a big part of it, making the jukebox (or whatever the roll20 devs will implement in the future) a paid option will make those players use 3rd party softwares or just quit roll20 for good, this also might affect pro players as well if the prices are increased just to cover that additional feature.
1475054216
Brother Sharp said: Jake M. said: While I too used SoundCloud pretty heavily in my campaigns, I hope you GMs reconsider canceling your upcoming games... Don't punish your players for SoundCloud decisions! &nbsp;I can understand those who record/stream, but the players can probably enjoy the heck out of your game regardless if there is mood music or not. You say that, but the only thing we can do as a community is to stop using the service unless a solution is provided. This goes for both Roll20 and Soundcloud. Both parties did poorly on their own respects. The devs have apparently known the conflict between Soundcloud and how they were being grandfathered, this problem should have been looked into a year ago instead of now when it broke. Soundcloud showed poor practice for pulling the plug overnight. As a user and GM I can show my disappointment to both by cancelling games on roll20 and Pro on soundcloud. Players might not be guilty but this fuels more people to boycott until a solution is found. It's sad, but no one will take action if we stay content with the current status. Action is being taken (they have said as such on here). Taking your ball and going home isn't going to accelerate a solution in any way, it's not an immediate thing to hash out these details and get new content prioritized. Concerning the "they knew this was coming and did nothing" this seems also super incorrect to me because they were doing something, developing the dozens of new content tools like the compendium, FX, and all the other elements that have come out over the last year. There was no need to focus the limited resources on this arena at the time, now there is. This sort of argument assumes people are just sitting around on their hands doing nothing. Look back over the last year and see what has been added to Roll20! Now imagine cutting all of that to switch out soundcloud for a seemingly identical alternative from the player side of things. Which would better serve their community? Canceling your games is just punishing your players and as a fellow GM working for some way to operate around this, it's not a critical loss to my content even if it is a substantial one. It just means you might have to work a bit harder to convey theme and emotion without relying upon music to do it for you, short term.
1475058870
Simon O.
Translator
Well said Encartus.&nbsp;I agree and voiced that there should have been a better contingency plan, but we do not know how long it will take roll20 to adapt to the new situation and it would be wrong to not run games because of it, if you are so infuriated vote with your wallet and if you do not pay anything you are also not entitled to demand anything.&nbsp; But there is another thing that bothers me even more, instead of complaining find a solution. There are already 2 posts here and countless others on reddit and other places. I figured out a way to play my players songs at this point. It gives me even more control over it then before. So stop complaining and help them or at least yourself.
1475085150
Whelp...time to close my SoundCloud account. I would upload custom tracks for my campaigns, but its kind of moot now. No sense in using them anymore.
1475085818
Ravenknight
KS Backer
Time to stop using their service in other words. I'm annoyed. I spent lots of hours configurating my SFX and music and this feels like a giant blow to the nose.
1475090657
Simon O. said: Well said Encartus.&nbsp;I agree and voiced that there should have been a better contingency plan, but we do not know how long it will take roll20 to adapt to the new situation and it would be wrong to not run games because of it, if you are so infuriated vote with your wallet and if you do not pay anything you are also not entitled to demand anything.&nbsp; But there is another thing that bothers me even more, instead of complaining find a solution. There are already 2 posts here and countless others on reddit and other places. I figured out a way to play my players songs at this point. It gives me even more control over it then before. So stop complaining and help them or at least yourself. Do you use API? I do, and just press a button to display a message and to start playing three songs at the same time were magic. Talking about magic, every magic macro and weapon macro had a song. There are other ways to play music. But none of them are syncronized with my in-game events. And I won't do it manually. I stream my games, and all other suggested solutions are poor at the best. The audio quality transmitted&nbsp;from mic is bad. Bots play only one music at time. Tabletop Audio broadcast&nbsp;doesn't work if you need to change the SoundPad (and I do change a lot environment) . There is no way to use the roll20 API in any of these solutions. So I'll probably cancel all my games past this week until something is done about it.
Can someone with more legal expertise than I kindly explain how allowing us to upload music to our libraries would be more of a DMCA violation risk than currently allowing us to upload images that could also be copyrighted? My understanding, is that as long as only the GM has the ability to upload/queue the audio files to play, and only their group can hear the music (pretty much how it worked with sound cloud) than there would be no copyright infringement issue. (And it would use part of our current upload limit for storage so no additional space needed.) With how heavily my games depend on custom atmospheric ambiance, (I've purchased a great many audio tracks off drive thru rpg for my games over the months.) and high quality voice acted audio logs to deliver key plot elements, the loss of music/audio service is crippling to my campaigns.
Music was a big part of my games too. I probably had 100 different audio files set up, ready to go. Feels like a waste now.&nbsp;
1475091913
Images have much looser, to the point of nearly impossible to enforce, laws concerning copyright protections and distribution.&nbsp;For example: the entire existence of Tumblr. Both pre and post internet rulings have made common use of images difficult to separate from a freedom of speech. Some of this goes back to common law with painters reproducing other people's works as homage, to more modern terms of fair use. Music and video, however, have considerable protections awarded through decades upon decades of lobbying from the record and motion picture agencies. They have much more in the way of teeth.
1475092360
Robert R.
Plus
Marketplace Creator
That said, allowing access to our personal drop boxes should not put Roll20 into danger at all, in a small-viewing setting.&nbsp; As long as they aren't providing links to download the songs and such natively, legally speaking it'd be like saying TeamSpeak is liable for someone playing a copyrighted song over it. I still think the ability to connect the roll20 jukebox to a cloud (still favoring Google Drive, a lot) would be far and away the best solution.
1475092502
Robert R.
Plus
Marketplace Creator
I am hearing that Twitch allows audio sub-rooms; this is another option I'm looking into right now.&nbsp; Has anyone any experience with it?
1475092557
Robert R.
Plus
Marketplace Creator
Adam said: Music was a big part of my games too. I probably had 100 different audio files set up, ready to go. Feels like a waste now.&nbsp; I would recommend that you go to Soundcloud and download most of your songs for whatever solution we move to, you don't have to lose them all.&nbsp; This isn't a recommendation to pirate, most songs on Soundcloud can be downloaded legally.
Robert R. said: I would recommend that you go to Soundcloud and download most of your songs for whatever solution we move to, you don't have to lose them all.&nbsp; This isn't a recommendation to pirate, most songs on Soundcloud can be downloaded legally. I've been doing this all day with my r20 sound library using the sound cloud downloader&nbsp; <a href="http://9soundclouddownloader.com/" rel="nofollow">http://9soundclouddownloader.com/</a> it quickly converts soundcloud tracks into .mp3's you can then save to your computer. (The only downside is you have to rename the file to your preferred title yourself when downloading since it assigns it a random alphanumeric combination on creation of the file. Hopefully they'll have an alternative up and running soon for us.
I just saw that&nbsp; Spotify is in "advanced talks" to buy Soundcloud . &nbsp;I guess that would help explain why they suddenly decided to pull the plug. &nbsp;I doubt that would help Roll20 in any way, unfortunately. &nbsp;
Liam said: Moises H. said: To the roll20 developers and owners: If money is the issue, which most of the times it is, then I can tell from a customer perspective, and also from someone who is not a programmer, that I find the 9.99 USD monthly fee not really that good, and with no real added value; I do believe the 4.99 fee is really good because you have the light effect which is really nice addition, plus the storage, that monthly fee is perfect, so as a customer who wants to keep using roll20, I would recommend having an adjustment on the monthly fees as follows: 4.99 fee, with the same features as it is now. 6.99 fee, with the FX options: beams, smoke, etc., plus the same features included in the 4.99 fee 9.99 fee, including the API plus the sfx from soundcloud, and that should pay whatever fee soundcloud is asking for I will keep paying the 9.99 fee because that is something all my players agreed to pay, but if I was paying that fee by myself, definitely I wouldnt pay it, I think it is too expensive for what we are receiving, considering not all your customers are programmers and some scripts dont work as expected. I hope this makes sense. Thanks, Moises H So you're asking roll20 to cut money from their profits to pay a fee to Soundcloud, even though you have no idea how much Soundcloud may or may not want in fees? As you said, you're not a programmer, so as someone who is, I will say that 9.99 a month for the service we get as Pro members is excellent. There are always things that roll20 can improve on, obviously, but the system they have and the capacity and capabilities of that system are well worth the money. I am not sure you know what Roll20 profits are, and if you go to the soundcloud web page you will know how much they want, and of course you can always have the B2B agreements to cut fees and stuff, Roll20 is not just for programmers, I didnt read any disclaimer mentioning that, so what I am saying is my point of view as a customer, which is as valid as any person commenting in this blog.
1475101070
Robert R.
Plus
Marketplace Creator
I honestly think, and it sounds like Roll20's staff agrees, Soundcloud is burnt .&nbsp; It's not coming back, no amount of subscription fees will fix it.&nbsp; Going forward shouldn't be drastically more expensive than it was before, though will require Roll20 likely do some serious jukebox re-coding. Honestly I think if we end up with cloud music and a better jukebox interface (Got I hated not being able to do mass deletion!) this might be a net win for Roll20 in general.
Moises H. said: I am not sure you know what Roll20 profits are, and if you go to the soundcloud web page you will know how much they want, and of course you can always have the B2B agreements to cut fees and stuff, Roll20 is not just for programmers, I didnt read any disclaimer mentioning that, so what I am saying is my point of view as a customer, which is as valid as any person commenting in this blog. You are right that I don't know how much roll20 makes in profits, but neither do you, that was my point. You presume that there is enough profits that roll20 can pay a fee to Soundcloud when that may not be true. I also didn't say roll20 is just for programmers, I said my opinion as someone who studied to be a programmer. I don't actually currently program anything for roll20, so I'm a customer just as much as you. Please don't twist my words.
1475102560
Nolan T. J.
Roll20 Team
In regards to conversation about a model that allows Roll20 to work with SoundCloud, they have not offered one to us-- so any pricing conjecture is moot if this is not a business model they're exploring.&nbsp; Wanted to point out that we've&nbsp; added additional music via Incompetech already , with more elements on the way.
1475105695
This is very upsetting. I had the entire jukebox set up for my campaign. I can't use alternatives because some parts of the campaign requires volume changes as part of an immersive experience. Just awful news.
I am very grateful that you managed to get incompetech implemented this fast. However I am afraid that third party tracks are of no use to me, while incompetech covers a wide range of genres it does not fulfill what I am looking at, and nor will any third party that Roll20 chooses without asking the community will do. Please drop any resources you are currently using to implement third party and focus them on a cloud solution, or even local cached music control. You are not buying me back with random third parties.
just have your party click on your invite link on Watchtogether <a href="https://www.watch2gether.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.watch2gether.com/</a>
1475107505
Guy's I made a petition to hopefully bring more awareness to the situation for a possible change of heart from the SoundCloud team if the community wishes to sign it. <a href="https://www.change.org/p/soundcloud-re-allow-access-of-the-soundcloud-api-to-the-roll20-service?recruiter=9527578&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink" rel="nofollow">https://www.change.org/p/soundcloud-re-allow-access-of-the-soundcloud-api-to-the-roll20-service?recruiter=9527578&utm_source=share_for_starters&utm_medium=copyLink</a>
1475109119
Kiyomi N.
Sheet Author
I would like to add my disappointment to the growing chorus here. I just reupped my subscription, authored my first sheet and was gearing up for a wonderful campaign and now I find that much of my hardwork in finding just the right music has been wasted. So upsetting...
1475152397
We need to upload links or mp3 sounds directly from ours computers, like we do with images.&nbsp; I make soundcloud account and upload many tracks to take to my roll20 games. We now have our games fucked &nbsp; with many tracks lost. So, what is the alternative roll20 give us?. Music and sound are mandatory if you want to have a good quality game. Please, give a solution Roll20.
1475153279
Keith
Pro
Marketplace Creator
I wonder if it has anything to do with SoundCloud being bought by Spotify? <a href="http://www.youredm.com/2016/09/28/spotify-advanced" rel="nofollow">http://www.youredm.com/2016/09/28/spotify-advanced</a>...
1475154028
Brother Sharp said: I am very grateful that you managed to get incompetech implemented this fast. However I am afraid that third party tracks are of no use to me, while incompetech covers a wide range of genres it does not fulfill what I am looking at, and nor will any third party that Roll20 chooses without asking the community will do. Please drop any resources you are currently using to implement third party and focus them on a cloud solution, or even local cached music control. You are not buying me back with random third parties. Agree , bro
1475156613
I'd like to express my thanks to the Roll20 community for working hard with solid solutions with crazy remarkably speed (72 hours to add over a thousand audio tracks? That's pretty insane in the business world). Folks are frustrated and upset, and with good reason. Those reasons aren't really Roll20's fault and blaming them and ordering them to meet your personal demands seems super silly and entitled to me, but folks feel a lot of different ways and even though I lost carefully build soundtracks on 4 different games I'm running I still appreciate how transparent, active, and amazing the Roll20 communication and development team has been historically and through this process. Keep up the good work guys, and don't let the folks still lashing out with their frustration overshadow the fact the majority of the community still hugely appreciates your work and looks forward to whatever solutions you can give us. Roll20 is the best platform out there, by far, for tabletop gaming.&nbsp;
Encartrus said: I'd like to express my thanks to the Roll20 community for working hard with solid solutions with crazy remarkably speed (72 hours to add over a thousand audio tracks? That's pretty insane in the business world). Folks are frustrated and upset, and with good reason. Those reasons aren't really Roll20's fault and blaming them and ordering them to meet your personal demands seems super silly and entitled to me, but folks feel a lot of different ways and even though I lost carefully build soundtracks on 4 different games I'm running I still appreciate how transparent, active, and amazing the Roll20 communication and development team has been historically and through this process. Keep up the good work guys, and don't let the folks still lashing out with their frustration overshadow the fact the majority of the community still hugely appreciates your work and looks forward to whatever solutions you can give us. Roll20 is the best platform out there, by far, for tabletop gaming.&nbsp; Just because they have done good stuff in the past it does not mean we should not raise our voice if we see Roll20 heading in the wrong direction. If they continue with adding royalty free tracks, I would be unhappy and most probably lose hope on whatever next thing they bring until I cancel my sub and ditch this for other alternatives. These opinions need to be voiced, so Roll20 can judge as a team on which clients to please and which to let go. Unless they have psychic powers, they will not be able to tell how the community feels. If your future vision for Roll20 is to listen to every 1000 tracks added just to realize that none of them has what you are looking for (Which I am going through), then by all means keep on cheering them.
Encartrus said: I'd like to express my thanks to the Roll20 community for working hard with solid solutions with crazy remarkably speed (72 hours to add over a thousand audio tracks? That's pretty insane in the business world). Folks are frustrated and upset, and with good reason. Those reasons aren't really Roll20's fault and blaming them and ordering them to meet your personal demands seems super silly and entitled to me, but folks feel a lot of different ways and even though I lost carefully build soundtracks on 4 different games I'm running I still appreciate how transparent, active, and amazing the Roll20 communication and development team has been historically and through this process. Keep up the good work guys, and don't let the folks still lashing out with their frustration overshadow the fact the majority of the community still hugely appreciates your work and looks forward to whatever solutions you can give us. Roll20 is the best platform out there, by far, for tabletop gaming.&nbsp; I just came back into this thread to post something similar. &nbsp;I can understand everyone's frustration and, like many of you, I have also spent many hours with the jukebox and Soundcloud that are now more or less wasted (although I haven't yet tried Luke's suggestion of using&nbsp; <a href="https://www.watch2gether.com/" rel="nofollow">https://www.watch2gether.com/</a> , which would still utilize Soundcloud tracks). &nbsp; Just realize that this is a small development team who, believe it or not, were kind of blindsided by Soundcloud's decision here. &nbsp;Yes, there had been rumblings of potential problems in the past, but the Roll20 guys had been assured that their use of the API would continue to be allowed. &nbsp;Then when Soundcloud reversed that decision, Roll20 was given no advanced notice to either provide us with another option or at least let the Roll20 users know to incorporate other tracks and sounds from the other 3rd party options. Regarding some of the suggestions I've seen, please keep in mind that music licensing is much more complicated and cutthroat than artwork and images. &nbsp;While providing cloud audio or local audio caching might sound like a simple and straightforward solution, there are definite legal questions involved that may be an insurmountable obstacle to that answer. &nbsp;If they facilitate the ability for users to stream music and sounds, even from the users' own personal cloud storage, does that make Roll20 liable or complicit for copyright infringement? &nbsp;Since the DM controls the audio for others, even if it is only 1 or more people, does that mean that it would fall under music broadcasting laws instead of personal use laws? &nbsp; I don't know all of the answers. &nbsp;Almost no one does! &nbsp;Even huge corporations with teams of copyright lawyers get it wrong sometimes and end up having to pay insane amounts of money in damages and legal fees. &nbsp;Nobody wants that to happen here, so let's give these guys a little slack and try to be appreciative for what they've already done and continue to do. &nbsp;They are listening and are undoubtedly hard at work trying to figure out a way to make this work for all of us if they can.