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Issue with Token Layers After June 4 2019 Patch

1560993617
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Does this mean that the Z-order is different depending on user then? A subjective z-order rather than an objective and universal one? Besides the issues listed by Wint, this could lead to confusion in referring to the board between players, if not everyone is seeing the same thing.
1561000859
Gen Kitty
Forum Champion
Graphics for spells should NOT be pulled to the front, unless the GM has given them vision. Tokens you control that do not have sight (commonly used for spell templates) are not pulled to the front.
keithcurtis said: Does this mean that the Z-order is different depending on user then? A subjective z-order rather than an objective and universal one? Besides the issues listed by Wint, this could lead to confusion in referring to the board between players, if not everyone is seeing the same thing. Yep, this is why its a bad idea to remove control from the Gamemaster.
1561071356
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Ravenknight said: keithcurtis said: Does this mean that the Z-order is different depending on user then? A subjective z-order rather than an objective and universal one? Besides the issues listed by Wint, this could lead to confusion in referring to the board between players, if not everyone is seeing the same thing. Yep, this is why its a bad idea to remove control from the Gamemaster. Have you verified this? I was seeking confirmation.
keithcurtis said: Ravenknight said: keithcurtis said: Does this mean that the Z-order is different depending on user then? A subjective z-order rather than an objective and universal one? Besides the issues listed by Wint, this could lead to confusion in referring to the board between players, if not everyone is seeing the same thing. Yep, this is why its a bad idea to remove control from the Gamemaster. Have you verified this? I was seeking confirmation. Yep, they don't see the same things. ( I hope that was your question or I put my foot in my mouth ) :)
1561127587
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Thanks. Yeah, that's not the same as was originally announced. If it needs to be done in order to get AFoW to work right, well, OK. Not optimal, but I can probably live with it.
Hi everyone, There seems to be a breakdown in communication regarding the changes implemented in this change to z-ordering. The use cases that we were operating from and that this change seeks to accommodate is as follows: Tokens controlled by players such as spell templates were obscuring NPCs on the map that should be visible. Controlling multiple tokens causes confusing z-ordering that could not be easily changed (Familiars sitting on a player's shoulder, riding a mount, etc.) Below offers some examples as to how these are addressed while maintaining as much accessibility to a given player's token as possible. Player 1 has their token which has "Has Sight" enabled. Player 1 has a shared token which&nbsp; also &nbsp;has "Has Sight" enabled (This could be a mount, a familiar, or a shared vessel such as a ship). For player 1, the original z-ordering (of tokens with "Has Sight" enabled) that will be seen is based on what order tokens were added to the play area, same for the GM. For instance, if player 1's token was added, and then a controlled mount (With "Has Sight" enabled) was added afterwards, the mount will appear on top. The mount can then be sent to back (or the player token brought to the front) to show player 1's token on top for both player and GM. The GM can alter the z-ordering of these controlled (With "Has Sight" enabled) tokens among themselves however they see fit.&nbsp; Do keep in mind &nbsp;that&nbsp;for the player, these tokens will appear above tokens that are uncontrolled and/or do not have "Has Sight" enabled (such as NPCs, Spell Templates, etc.) at all times. To speak more to that, for spell effect tokens, the GM or player would pull a spell effect (which typically will not have "Has Sight" enabled) and place it on the token layer. This token could be controlled by a player or all players but since "Has Sight" is&nbsp; not &nbsp;enabled, it will&nbsp; always &nbsp;render below tokens that are controlled and have "Has Sight" enabled. The GM would be unable to put this spell template above a player controlled token with "Has Sight" enabled. As a last example, here is a quick video showcasing the behavior described above:&nbsp; <a href="https://imgur.com/a/Z1UzvRH" rel="nofollow">https://imgur.com/a/Z1UzvRH</a> For context-- The left side showcases the GM view, and the right side showcases the player view. The small token is a player character token with "Has Sight" enabled The medium token is a controlled mount with "Has Sight" enabled The gray circle represents a controlled token that does&nbsp; not &nbsp;have "Has Sight" enabled, such as a spell template Again, these were the major use cases that we were operating under and that this change seeks to address. We apologize if there is anything wrong with how we have implemented or communicated this use case. Our goal currently, is to figure out how we can best communicate how this change has been implemented and to gather feedback as to if it is or is not working and the specific use cases that are not addressed. We truly appreciate your patience as we work together through this update.
1561158290
Gen Kitty
Forum Champion
I have mingled feelings: I'm happy; my balls of Dancing Light can go on top of other tokens and they get the light without my light-tokens being in their way. I'm sad; my familiar can no longer perch on top of my token because it has no vision (until I'm looking through its eyes) and thus hides under my character instead.
1561167526

Edited 1561167593
Loren the GM
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Steve K. &nbsp;said: Loren, I hear what you're asking for with a toggle option for this functionality. We're reluctant to do that because the Dynamic Lighting and Advanced Fog of War are already the most complicated tools on the VTT. To the point where for new users they can be intimidating and sometimes inaccessible. Adding more options increases the cognitive load required to learn the system, so they need to be added with a deft hand. Which is why I'm hoping you'll help me understand your pain points here. Sorry for the late response - I didn't end up with time to play with this while it was on Dev. I'd still rather have a separate toggle. I understand the idea is to keep things simple and not overwhelm people with options, but this feature doesn't really make Has Sight a simpler feature - if anything, it makes it more confusing since now it also controls z-order. Having a discreet option allows DM's to use the feature the way they want to use it at the table. Making it a separate toggle doesn't make that more confusing - it just allows more nuanced use of a situation that the DM and players will have to tackle no matter what the implementation is. And having it tied to an existing feature puts limits on that feature for future development, as well as potential for unintended use cases such as: Gen Kitty said: I'm sad; my familiar can no longer perch on top of my token because it has no vision (until I'm looking through its eyes) and thus hides under my character instead.
1561178903

Edited 1561178930
Drespar, Here are some screen shots from a game in which I am a player, not the GM. As you can see in the first picture, on a map with dynamic lighting enabled, the token labeled “Yithkash” is shown as above the token labeled “Ezekiel” to me, the player. I have control of both tokens, as one is my player token, and another is a party NPC. They both have sight. As a note, the Yithkash token was pulled onto the VTT second. However, as can be seen in the rest of the pictures, the GM has set Yithkash to be behind. Now, the preferred behavior would be that as the GM as set Yithkash to behind, it should appear behind any other token with sight the player has control over. And that is the outline that Steve K. laid out before.
While preparing for my games, I often use objects like trees/bushes as places to hide for hostile NPC Besides, map for the game done in pseudo-isometric form. I really wish players to be able to go behind some objects and hide there. That is why i want Z-Order to stay the way it was before.
Hi Wint, Thank you for the feedback and information there! The behavior you are running into relates to GM-Token Ownership settings and is something we want to review further. For the settings in your game, Ezekiel is set to be controlled by a player and Yithkash is set to be controlled by All Players. Where the discrepancy is coming in is that "All Players" technically means the token is owned by you as well. This causes it to appear above all others regardless of your z-order which can be confusing. However, the Z-order appears correct on the players end. This was a known limitation at the time of release but it did not get correctly notated in this thread or in the patch notes. We apologize for the confusion. The development team is currently assessing how to address this limitation. We will keep you posted with additional information as it becomes available. Regarding a workaround-- Due to the fact that you as the GM are included in "All Players" if you add the other players to permissions instead of "All Players" it will function as expected. Alternatively, if you add yourself to the individual characters in addition to the owning player it will also function as expected. Sorry for the trouble while we get this limitation sorted out :( Hi Maxim, Thank you for the additional input! As you mention, your use case is, unfortunately, not covered in the current iteration of this update and we apologize for the trouble that can introduce. Our goal is to strive for updates that fit all play-styles and systems. We anticipate that this use case will be better addressed with our future Layer Up update. This update is still in the works, but we will keep you posted as soon as we have more details to provide!
Drespar said: However, the Z-order appears correct on the players end. [...] Due to the fact that you as the GM This is incorrect. As noted in my initial post, I am not the GM of this game . However, the token layering z-order still appears incorrectly to me. The "Yithkash" token should be in front of the "Ezekiel" token, but is not. Even though I have control over both of them and they have been re-ordered to set them as such, the "Ezekiel" token still appears on top.
Apologies for the misunderstanding, seems there was a miscommunication internally when we were discussing this issue. Going back to test again with that in mind I am still not running into any issues in a copy of the game in question. Below is a gif of what I am seeing on my end when trying to reproduce this behavior: On the left side is a player view in a different browser window and on the right is the GM view. I started with Yithkash being visible above Ezekiel as shown in your examples above. However, when sending to back/front it acts as expected on the players end. (Not on the GM side as discussed regarding the "All Players" discrepancies). I also get the same results if using the Yithkash token to send to back/front. So I have a few questions to make sure I am replicating this properly and to remove as many variables as possible: What browser are you using when this occurs? Does it happen if you swap to a different browser? Do you possibly have any extensions or addons enabled? Could you try replicating this in private browsing/incognito? If you create your own game with a test account, can you reproduce this behavior? Does this happen in other games where you are not the GM? Thank you and sorry for the trouble in all of this!
1562288289

Edited 1562290964
Drespar, first a question for you, did you make yourself the sole owner of Ezekiel? To answer your questions; Browser: I use Firefox, my GM for this game uses Chrome. We both observe the same behavior which you've failed to reproduce. Addons: I still observe this behavior even without addons or in private browsing. Test account: I could not reproduce this behavior using a test account and my main account together in two different browsers (Firefox &amp; Chrome) at the same time. Other games: This does occur in other games when I am not the GM.
To be clear, the behavior I'm experiencing here is exactly what is intended as far I understand it. The token that is set to be controlled by Me is forward facing at all times, no matter what, even over the top of a token controlled by "All Players." My GM has told me that they can change the order, sending Yithkash to the back, and to them it will change, but I always see Ezekiel in front. Again, as far as I understand it , the behavior is working as intended. However , that is not the behavior that was outlined by Steve K. a month ago which found broad consensus among those raising concerns about Token Layers in this thread, and this behavior is not optimal for me as a player or a GM.
1562293519

Edited 1562296568
Talking with my GM of this particular game and some further experimentation with them has led to an interesting discovery. To further test the issue, I invited them to a new game just for testing purposes, and attempted to replicate the issue. As you see in the attached pictures, they have control of the token labeled "The Other GM," and also have control by way of 'All Players' to the token labeled "All Players." So as to replicate the same circumstances as the Yithkash/Ezekiel issue, I set the page to have dynamic lighting on. I provided a light source that all players could see light from, and gave each token sight as well. Setting one token in a grid square and another slightly off kilter so that they overlapped, The Other GM reported initially seeing themselves forward as expected. When I sent "All Players" to back, to them it appeared as so. This goes against both the outline that Stephanie B. provided earlier in thread and our own experiences with this exact same set up in the other game with Yithkash and Ezekiel. Further, not only did the, in this case a player, see the tokens shift, I as the GM did not . Talking with the other GM about this particular bug, they further stated that since this change to token layers on June 4th, they have been experiencing the above issue. However, this is the first time I have seen it myself, as either a player or a GM in my own games, and further is the opposite behavior of what we both have been experiencing in the game with Yithkash &amp; Ezekiel.
1562605800

Edited 1562605856
A situation we have often is that a monster's life bar, name, etc., gets covered up by players. When it's important, the GM (me) pops the monster on top so everyone can get a good look at it. Recently when I've tried to do this it hasn't been working. Now I know why. First, I'm disappointed this wasn't better communicated. I watch the blog and forum and expect them to point out core behavior changes like this one. Given the change was buried in a regular update, and in one over a month old, it's no wonder I didn't find it. Google is amazing. Second, I would prefer the toggle option. I agree with the players vexed by the notion that a) an option unrelated to token order (i.e., sight) would control it, and b) that a player would have an override option (i.e., always on top) instead of me, the GM.&nbsp; Third, can someone please explain how token ordering works now, per the latest updates? I'm confused by all the back and forth, and I'd appreciate examples that help me understand what's changed and how to address it.&nbsp; I want to move a token under a player. They might control it, such as a personal spell effect, or they might not, such as a spiked pit. I want to move a token over a player. They might control it, such as a familiar they want to carry, or they might not, such as a force cage. I think those two situations cover what I need, but just to be sure, I'll reiterate the problem that brought me here, and also call out something that still confuses me for clarification:&nbsp; I want to briefly move a monster on top of a player so we can see some detail being covered up. They don't control the monster. I want a player and GM to see the same order for token X and token Y.&nbsp; When would they be different? How can I make them the same? Thanks for your help!
I understand these problems take time to resolve. Believe me, I know. I think we all do. But some sort of feedback isn't just a courtesy. It's been over a week.
It's been a month since receiving any sort of feedback from a dev about this issue, after I spent several hours testing various behaviors to thoroughly answer a dev's question. I'm not exactly happy with roll20 rn.
Wint said: It's been a month since receiving any sort of feedback from a dev about this issue, after I spent several hours testing various behaviors to thoroughly answer a dev's question. I'm not exactly happy with roll20 rn. Check out this thread:&nbsp; <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/7368015/advanced-fog-of-war-feedback-thread-2-dot-0" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/7368015/advanced-fog-of-war-feedback-thread-2-dot-0</a> &nbsp; Cavni mentions a revamp of the graphics rendering systems. Hopefully we will see this "feature" get some much needed love as well but I doubt it will be high on the list of priorities.