Latest sheet changes & general discussion

Found the issue with Adj field calc. lol  I just zeroed it out from the attributes tab. So, even though I've hidden those fields they are still being included in the column calc.  One of the pitfalls of an active test environment.   I think that is a new attribute, so it would not affect any existing(outside of the beta game) or new sheets.  I'll make sure to account for that in the sheetworkers though.  Good catch.

Armor Details: reworked this section as per the forum discussions. Bottom row numbers can be manually edited and they will ONLY get auto-calculated, (based on the table info above) IF you use the "Calc AC" button at the bottom right corner. Added additional "Other" rows to handle misc armor, gear, circumstances, etc. I'll probably make 3/4 of the "Other" rows collapsible later to save room/de-clutter. To make room, the bottom row Adj fields show Magic + Misc, combined when auto-calced. Same with Shield adj. The greyed out sub-totals seen below the table columns show "in Use/Best" for AR and AC, and "in Use/Total" for Magic and Misc.

Looking really nice! One quick thing I noticed was that the "Petrify" save was missing from the NPC sheet. I'll do a little more testing later. Thanks

oops... Edit: Fixed

AMAZING WORK vÍnce! Thank you

@Everything Thank you. Been a little busy with work, but I'm trying to push forward with the sheet. Inspired by @ David 's custom sheet... I've started playing around with auto-filling the Ability rows. ie change the Base Ability score and the row will auto-fill based on the ability tables.  I currently only have Strength coded (check the test game) but I would like to "read the room" before continuing.  Does this seem beneficial, too intrusive, unnecessary?  I personally think this would be a time-saver. Cheers

I don't see a problem with that. I'm not aware of any common variations. Thanks for asking.

I like the idea

We find it beneficial for sure. #1 for the GM when creating characters/npcs but also for PCs esp. given that the group really uses the heck out of Strength spells. One little side effect tho on my sheet is that we default to 8 for all ability scores (when a sheet is first created) and the sheet does not fill in the mods on inception - and because my attack API looks for Str or Dex mods and it doesn't handle null values well, it means I need to reenter the scores each time I create a sheet so the mods fill in on change (otherwise the attack api creates bad output). I'm fairly sure you are leaving the ability scores blank on a new sheet, so no worries there but you may want to consider throwing in defaults for quick character gen. If you do, maybe make sure the mods are included with the defaults... In any case, if you support over-rides if the user types things in, it should be fine (and if you change the base score, it over-writes the mods to defaults). One example is that we moved to lbs. instead of gp for weights/encumbrance in our game - I'm not sure how I'll deal with that yet. Thinking either go back to gp or try to customize. Thanks again for all the work on this! ~D

Thanks for the feedback.  I'll shall continue and post back as I reach milestones. Thank you everyone for being patient.

Added in the calcs for the rest the ability rows. Intelligence (bonuslanguages only update for humans. Manual entry required for demi-humans.) Con hp bonus is being applied to all classes but I'm planning to add a class check for fighter/ranger/paladin for bonuses above +2. EDIT/UPDATE: sheet checks classes for F,P,R to expand hp bonus past +2.

Couple "under-the-hood" updates. one-time version check/update that auto-calcs ability rows, saves, and thief skills. one-time version check/update that updates the macro-text for repeating weapons, abilities, nwp, and spells. Only unedited, default macro-text will be updated to the latest default roll automatically. Customized macro-text will be skipped. FYI: to force a field to update to the latest default, simply delete the text. The "Reset Now" button in the sheet settings forces updates of multiple sheet-wide macro-text fields. Use with caution. These checks should help existing sheets transition. The current pool of characters in the test game might not be the best test group since they have been "manipulated" through the various sheet updates.  Please test by importing more sheets. ;-)  Sheets should update from older versions(current live is v1.58) to the latest beta v1.6 after today's update.

Backstab: Backstab Multiplier,@{backstab} and Backstab Bonus,@{backstab_bonus} are now included with attack rolls.  Both fields are located in the Thief Skills section.  The multiplier defaults to "1", and the bonus defaults to "0" so they will not affect normal attacks. Enabling the "Backstab" checkbox on the attack adds the To-Hit bonus (defaults to "+4") to the attack roll and will multiply the weapon damage rolled. Damage, magic, misc. bonuses are applied after the damage multiplier. "Backstab Attack!!!" is also indicated in the roll template if the backstab is checked for the attack. If "Thief Skills" are being hidden in the sheet settings, the backstab checkbox are also hidden and will not be applied to attacks regardless if they are in a checked state.  This should help prevent any "mysterious" to-hit bonuses or damage multipliers for non-thieves.

Couple more updates; Weapons: Range now includes three hidden attributes, weapon_range_short, weapon_range_medium, and weapon_range_long. This should help with custom macros and/or API handling of missile weapons. While the weapon_range field excepts any text value, the preferred format should be three numbers separated by a forward slash. Dash, space, or comma should also work. ie '1/2/3', '10-20-30', '1 2 3', '1,2,3'. The sheet will attempt to extract the three range values but will show a red/gold border with red text if it cannot extract all three ranges. Weapons: added a new Attack Type selector to indicate "Melee, Ranged, Touch, or Ranged Touch". Mostly a visual indicator, but can also help differentiate attack types for API. Changed the older Dual-wield "Attack Type" attributes ie weapon_attack_type_pen to weapon_dual_pen and have also updated the macro-text accordingly. Range field cannot be parsed.

A few more updates; - Bug Fix: backstab adj. that were enabled for attacks were still active even when Thief Skills were hidden. Hiding Thief Skills also hides and disables Backstab adjustments. - Dual-Wield: dual-wield primary and secondary penalty has been added to the top of the Weapons section. Directly below Weapon Proficiencies. ( @{dual_pen_primary} and @{dual_pen_secondary} ) Dual-wield penalties are calculated based on Dexterity. You can override these penalties locally, per attack, if desired. - Armor Rating: clicking "Ignore AR" sets armorclass_rating and unarmored_base to "-". - Choosing "Ranged Touch" will now accept a single range and or text in the Range field without displaying an input error.  The Range field label also changes from "S/M/L" to "Range" which might avoid any confusion that you must enter three range values.

vÍnce said: A few more updates; Can't wait for the new sheets to test them out !! 

I know you are working on this new Sheet, will we be able to use the old one once this one is done? I would probably continue to want to use the one we have now.  Thanks

Hi Tilt, with few exceptions, roll20 normally only allows one sheet per system.  There are a handful of sheets that have been "grandfathered in" as well or if roll20 has also made an official version.  I will make a request that the 1e revision be allowed as it's own sheet (maybe sneak it in as OSRIC /1e compatible).  I have gone through great lengths to make the revised 1e sheet backward compatible with the existing sheet which might have actually been to the detriment of the revised sheet as well as dashing roll20's acceptance for this to be its own sheet... More importantly, would you be open to discussing why you would prefer to stay with the current version?  I have been open to suggestions and have tried to walk the line between the current relatively manual/static version of sheet and something with more features and auto-calculation.  All points are valid and I would like to try and release something that the majority of the 1e community would find beneficial. Thank you in advance. Sincerely Vince

Chomping at the bit for this started a 1e campaign a month or so ago and reeeeealy looking forward to the new sheet. thanks for all the work

Apologizes if this is addressed elsewhere; but when will the new character sheet be released for general use? Really looking forward to converting my game over.

Hi MJS, I suppose I've been a little hesitant to release the update and have purposely dragged my feet in order to try and solicit as well as implement any suggestions/feedback from others. I've come to understand that the update will not satisfy everyone. (although I was kind of hoping to achieve something closer to that). Unless anyone here has some other suggestions to make the sheet "better", I'm just about ready to release it. I still want to add translations to the sheet, but that can be added after the update without disrupting users. I'll try and release this as it's own sheet, but I'm not optimistic that roll20 will allow that.  In which case, everyone using the current 1e sheet (except for pro users who can opt for a custom sheet) will be forced to use the 1e Revised sheet whether they like it or not.  Not looking forward to the potential backlash from our beloved grognards. ;-) All that said, I'm aiming to release something in the next couple weeks. Cheers

Great news Vince! Thanks again for all your hard work on this! 

Amazing thanks for the efforts!

- Added Ability Checks(click an ability to make a roll). Defaults to 1d20 vs the Ability score, but the check can be customized from the sheet settings: Ability Check die.

Hmmm. Been testing the Hill Giant's boulder attack when I saw some errors. One short cut I wanted to use was to allow the Player to place an "X" in the Qty field and have the script ignore trying to decrement ammo. Now it might be my script (and I'll run it with a debug setting), but can you confirm the Sheet does not place a 1 in the Qty field? What is happening is the X after the first attack gets a 1 appended to it, ie. x1 which to my script looks like "not 1 or more". I'm guessing is my script doing it, but wanted to double check your side as well. Thx

@David Although qty is set to 1 in the html, I will probably need to use a sheetworkers to set the equipment defaults to expose the repeating attributes to the api/mods.  I did this for weapons/attacks.  I probably just need to do it for all repeating sections.

I may be confusing what you're saying. My interpretation (of what you are saying) is that the sheet (when created) and a new Weapon row is added creates the weapon with a 1 in the Qty field. If that is the case, no worries, it shouldn't modify the field later, right? My hypothesis is that because I decrement the Qty by -1 is that somehow it adds a "1" to the Qty field. Here is what I asked Kurt (et al) on Discord:  My ammo script uses the following line to decrement ammo: --!a:[&SelectedId]|[*R>weapon_quantity]:-=1. However, my intent has been that if a player puts an "X" or "x" in the field, I'd skip decrementing. So first I use this --?[*R:weapon_quantity] -eqi X|SkipDecrementAmmo. (plus I look for null values, etc.) However, I'm seeing, after the first attack, that the weapon_quantity field changes to x1 for some reason. I think it's most likely that my script edits the field (and add the "1" value), however, if you know your sheet modifies it automatically, then it would save me some time figuring this out. (I doubt that's what is happening though given the way the field changes when the script runs?) ~D

Quantity is simply a text field with a default of "1".  The sheet uses the value to determine weight and cost but it doesn't write anything to the field. So, I'm thinking this may be something related to scriptcard.

Yeah - I think its fixed now. Script is updated.

Looking forward to the release, thanks for all the work Vince

Thanks Robert.  We're getting closer... Quick update; I'm mainly testing and tweaking at this stage.  I've made more adjustments to help migrate existing character data.  Mostly doing under-the-hood stuff.  Last night I added Default Settings options(only available once the sheet goes live) that allow the game's creator to set sheet defaults.  These will be applied to all new sheets automatically (ie npc, whispers, hide/show various areas, auto-calc ac, hp, crit damage, etc.), but can also be applied to ALL existing sheets through an additional in-game step from the 'My Settings' page, 'Apply Default Settings'. Also, wanted to thank David for helping me troubleshoot the sheet and act as a sounding board for the various 1e features.  David has been feverishly working with a couple api/mod scripts (scriptcards and tokenmod specifically) as well to create an alternative combat resolution system. No doubt this will be a great option for Pro subscribers. Finally, I have sent a request to roll20 (through back channels) that explained what I've been up to with the 1e sheet.  The normal roll20 policy is one sheet per system with a few grandfathered exceptions and/or if roll20 has created their own sheet for a system.  I presented a couple additional options;     A. Release this version of the sheet as ' Ad&d 1e revised ' and allow the existing sheet to remain as a 'legacy' sheet.     B. Allow both sheets to co-exist temporarily to allow users the option to transition over time to prepare games and players for the sheet change.      C. Release this sheet as an ' Ad&d OSRIC ' sheet which would allow for the old sheet to continue as well.     D. The revised sheet will just update the existing sheet.  This is the norm... I'm still waiting for a response. I will post back as soon as I get an answer. Cheers 

I think having both  Ad&d 1e revised &  Ad&d OSRIC   sheets is a must !!

Kruc said: I think having both  Ad&d 1e revised &  Ad&d OSRIC   sheets is a must !! Good try Kruc.  ;-)

Worst case, couldn't a Pro user implement the legacy sheet as a custom sheet? They just need access to it (is it in Github somewhere?)

David M. said: Worst case, couldn't a Pro user implement the legacy sheet as a custom sheet? They just need access to it (is it in Github somewhere?) That's correct.  Of course not every DM has a Pro account.., so we're hoping for the best outcome for all.

David M. said: Worst case, couldn't a Pro user implement the legacy sheet as a custom sheet? They just need access to it (is it in Github somewhere?) problem with this mind set is it also works other way around, people wanting to use the revised sheet cna just use it as a custom sheet :)

yes they should just allow multiple sheets, and if you have not please go vote for this, we need votes to push this agenda. Please everyone go give your support. <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/6493089/multiple-sheets-in-a-game/" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/6493089/multiple-sheets-in-a-game/</a> vÍnce said: Thanks Robert.&nbsp; We're getting closer... Quick update; I'm mainly testing and tweaking at this stage.&nbsp; I've made more adjustments to help migrate existing character data.&nbsp; Mostly doing under-the-hood stuff.&nbsp; Last night I added Default Settings options(only available once the sheet goes live) that allow the game's creator to set sheet defaults.&nbsp; These will be applied to all new sheets automatically (ie npc, whispers, hide/show various areas, auto-calc ac, hp, crit damage, etc.), but can also be applied to ALL existing sheets through an additional in-game step from the 'My Settings' page, 'Apply Default Settings'. Also, wanted to thank David for helping me troubleshoot the sheet and act as a sounding board for the various 1e features.&nbsp; David has been feverishly working with a couple api/mod scripts (scriptcards and tokenmod specifically) as well to create an alternative combat resolution system. No doubt this will be a great option for Pro subscribers. Finally, I have sent a request to roll20 (through back channels) that explained what I've been up to with the 1e sheet.&nbsp; The normal roll20 policy is one sheet per system with a few grandfathered exceptions and/or if roll20 has created their own sheet for a system.&nbsp; I presented a couple additional options; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A. Release this version of the sheet as ' Ad&amp;d 1e revised ' and allow the existing sheet to remain as a 'legacy' sheet. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; B. Allow both sheets to co-exist temporarily to allow users the option to transition over time to prepare games and players for the sheet change.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; C. Release this sheet as an ' Ad&amp;d OSRIC ' sheet which would allow for the old sheet to continue as well. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; D. The revised sheet will just update the existing sheet.&nbsp; This is the norm... I'm still waiting for a response. I will post back as soon as I get an answer. Cheers&nbsp;

Development has slowed quite a bit... so if any Pro users would like to use the 1e beta in a custom game, you can grab the latest version of the code here: HTML CSS I'll try and keep it current with any changes found here.&nbsp; Please let me know if you find any issues, or have further suggestions.

Hi Vince. Any idea when the new sheet will be available to GMs who don’t have Pro accounts?

It's a thing of beauty Vince. Really excellent job! We all owe you a beer at whatever Con you go to (its been an age since I attended one but would go just to buy you a beer/drink/steak). Cheers and Thanks! ~D

@David M. I second that!

Rob S. said: Hi Vince. Any idea when the new sheet will be available to GMs who don’t have Pro accounts? I never did get a response to my menu of possibilities that could be considered moving forward.&nbsp; I assume they will not make an exception to their 1sheet/system for the 1e sheet.&nbsp; Yes, there are some exceptions, ie roll20 official versions or one's that were grandfathered in, or if a sheet is substantially different from another to warrant it's own sheet.&nbsp; So I believe we must either push the beta as an update to the current sheet or try and submit as it's own sheet, " AD&amp;D 1e Revised " and see if they allow it.&nbsp; I think I will try the later first and only update the existing 1e sheet if I have to.&nbsp; I'm hesitant to force the update given some of the push-back I've seen on the forums in response to other sheets that have been updated similarly.&nbsp; I've tried hard to make these revisions backward-compatible, but inevitably, there will be some issues that could crop up if done as an update.&nbsp; I'll probably submit this as a new sheet on Monday and see if that's accepted. (not holding my breath)

I'm one of those who needs a 1st ed AD&amp;D sheet that's as simple as possible for my games. Maybe if you label your latest version "1.5 edition" or something, to get them to see it as an alternate?

I appreciate that Baron.&nbsp; I think "1.5" might muddy the waters.&nbsp; The sheet is still 95% 1e.&nbsp; (there are a few allowances for UA, OA, etc.) 2e has "AD&amp;D 2e" and a "AD&amp;D 2e Revised". I think&nbsp; " AD&amp;D 1e Revised " seems fitting for this sheet given the 2e precedence.&nbsp; DM's are the ones that decide which sheet to use.&nbsp; Player's do not have the option.&nbsp; If this goes through as a separate sheet, there's no change required for existing 1e sheet users. They wouldn't even know there is another version out available. Of course anyone using the existing sheet can change there template to the revised version as well if desired.

Let's assume that they do not allow it as a separate sheet, can you answer a few questions for those that have not been through this before?&nbsp; &nbsp;If the new sheet is implemented, will our sheets from the old version "fill in" to the new sheet?&nbsp; &nbsp; My main concern is not the new sheet, I think it is in-depth enough to allow us to use and not use what we would like.&nbsp; (for example, to not use weapon speed or armor class adjustments if we didn't want to).&nbsp; &nbsp;My main concern is the new sheet taking affect and me making sure that everything is ready to go for our next session.&nbsp; &nbsp; I have no idea what this process will be like.&nbsp; Thank you for all of your work, looking forward to many aspects of the new sheet.

Hi Tilt, great question.&nbsp; In theory, characters should transition into the new sheet without issue.&nbsp; While many fields have not changed at all and will transfer 1:1, I've included code in the update to migrate existing attribute data where necessary.&nbsp; The revised sheet does include many new auto-calculating fields/sections, but there are also sheet options to enable/disable "some" of this if you would rather handle this manually.&nbsp; I encourage everyone(regardless of your roll20 level) to import some of their existing characters into the beta game to help iron out any issues prior to going live.&nbsp; Pro users can use the latest beta code to test as well.&nbsp; Probably best to do so with a new game or a copy of your game to be safe.

Agree on copying the game. Always good to have a backup in any case. @Tilt, I'm not sure how many macros you use, but if you use macros pointing to the sheet, you may want to build in time to reset anything that got repointed. I think Vince mentions this above. Cheers!

Good point David.&nbsp; Sadly, off-sheet macros are out of the sheet authors control since we cannot access anything beyond the sheet's code.&nbsp; For clarity; about 2 year's ago I updated all the repeating attributes on the sheet in anticipation of revising the sheet.&nbsp; If you've already adjusted your off-sheet macros for that(apologies for those that needed to update their macros), or if you've created new sheets, and/or a new game(s) since then, you shouldn't have to worry about missing/unknown attribute errors in chat.&nbsp; That said, there have been some changes to the sheet's roll templates.&nbsp; If you want some of those options in your macros, you will need to make some adjustments.&nbsp; That said, old macros should still work, they just won't have some of the new roll template logic.&nbsp; All on-sheet rolls have automatically been updated.&nbsp; If you have manually modified/customized the attack macro-text, the sheet should ignore the field when updating and like the untouched off-sheet macros, you may have to edit if you want the new template functionality.&nbsp; BTW: you can always update these fields manually, or reset to the latest default by simply clearing the macro-text field.&nbsp; There's also a "nuclear" option in the sheet settings to reset all repeating macro-text fields to defaults if you so desire.

Figured I'd ask this here in case others run into the same question: When you set the sheet to whisper rolls in Settings, I noticed the macro text did not change. I assume the sheet will add the whisper automatically? The sequence was that I added the abilities, then unhid macros in Settings, then noticed the Whisper option and set it to whisper. I did not notice any change to the macro. (I don't want to test it on the game server and give away the beasties name/type. I may try it elsewhere.)

Couple of items found during "testing" (ie. in play!): Issue with Equipment Section. &nbsp;I was able to recreate this on the beta server. Go to Equipment and click the lock, depending on (?I have no idea?) the Tab? You will see a blank row with a trash can that hangs in front of the Relock icon. The player ends up deleting their equipment while trying to relock. Once you have the issue, it may (or may not!) follow you to other tabs. What we end up doing is trying to find a tab where the lock icon is visible and click it before things start to get deleted. So, while not super critical, it would help (alot) to get it fixed. I think you need some equipment in there to get the error. (Minor) Issue with the Notes Section. &nbsp; I was able to recreate this on the beta server. Go to Notes. Looking at Note 1, you can enter the Name and details to the right. Add a note and the details is hidden under the Gear for all subsequent notes (whether the Single Column check box is checked or not). Not a huge deal but a little inconsistent. I like the side by side look, but understand the preference for a bigger details field. Again, not a game stopper but something to throw on the list. Everything else seems to be working really well. The players are stretching the boundaries (spells, equipment, etc.). I'm about done with a ScriptCards-based Weapon Attack Menu (lots of functionality including auto-apply conditions mods*, auto-range mods, multi-token attacks, etc.), a Save Menu, Initiative Menu/Procedure, and various automated abilities. Once ready, I'll open a thread in the Character Sheets section. I'll also add some notes on how we are managing around the mule character sheet ability issue and using bump with statusmarkers that indicate conditions (all thanks to Kurt J. the ScriptCards author). Thanks again Vince! Hope all is well! * I ended up with a method that does not modify the sheet at all. The attack script checks for statusmarkers then crossreferences a mule to apply any mods to attack rolls, damage, and ac incl. removal of dex/shield, etc. Fairly involved but is working really well (easily managed/extensible, no double counting, and no errors due to R20 issues, etc.).