Pathfinder sheet thread 3: I've run out of titles

some ideas I've had after helping players create characters and fixing their sheets: 1. An "FC Misc" column on the classes tab, that can be used to track alternate favored class bonuses. This can then be used in macros 2. This is a lot harder but would make the sheet more automated. I had this idea looking at the "conditions": 2.a. A List of conditions (such as the other variable length lists) where the name of condition is editable. I could add them to players and enter my own names (like Bless, Rage, etc) and the players could check them as they applied. 2.b. To fully utilize 2a, all Temp fields (as well as "modifier" fields in attack or damage etc) should be allowed to contain macros. That way I can put something that adds a number based on whether a condition is checked. For instance, if I enter Rage as a custom condition, I can add a macro to the temp fields of STR and CON that say to add +2 or +4 if Rage is checked, such as @{[[2 * @{checkbox in question}]]} I think that allowing macros and letting the user set or break the sheets is easier than adding tons of custom conditions for buffs or class abilities, and is open enough for future books or feats we haven't heard of. I am not sure if allowing the temp textboxes to be parsed for macros is a huge amount of work or not. I am not a mentor, if my current project finishes up soon i may have time to upgrade and help some. 3. alternative to 2: The alternative would be to create macros that updated the "temp" fields for a selected character. But I can't find how to do that anywhere. is there a way? Or is that only possible as a mentor via javascript? Because if fields COULD be updated via macro, that would make it a lot easier, on the Class abilities list we could put that macro in the Description field, and pressing the Roll button would then set all those temp abilities. I guess there would have to be another for removing them. But something like that, to work the best, would ideally read the current value and adjust that. This would be more like an open-ended way of the drain mechanic a few posts up.

Hi Chris. Thanks for the suggestions. Without too much thought; 1. An "FC Misc" column on the classes tab, that can be used to track alternate favored class bonuses. Not a bad idea, but can't most(all) alternate favored class bonuses be applied directly to the applicable roll using the "misc" field/attribute or added via macro-text? I know the sheet does not have an exclusive attribute for alternate favored class bonuses(which can be something other than a simple +1/+2/+3, etc.), but I think there is already a method for adding the bonuses as needed. 2.a. A List of conditions (such as the other variable length lists) where the name of condition is editable. Do you mean like repeatable items? Currently the conditions are "named" attributes and are included in the formulas of all sheet rolls affected by the condition. I'm not sure how creating/adding a new condition could be utilized in the same way. The formula needs to include the "known" conditions. If I add a condition(make up a name), how will the formula's, that are hard coded into the sheet, know to apply the newly added condition? I'm not a programmer, not even close, so there may be some black magic that could make this happen. 3. alternative to 2: The alternative would be to create macros that updated the "temp" fields for a selected character. Macros can't affect character sheets.

Thanks. For #1, yes i have been adding + @{level} in the corresponding calculations which is working. I just don't want to forget why I put that there, and a +/- misc column just aids in recordkeeping. Especially if the player decides to change. Hmm... I guess I could put the character level minus the FC hp and FC skills ... that would actually be the same thing, since if it's not one or the other it must be the alternate choice. For #2: Correct, I meant repeatable items to implement "effects on the character" that are not Conditions with a capital C, but operate similarly. So if I check one, I can update several fields on the sheet at once. (For instance, Rage would add +4 to CON +2 to STR, and -2 to AC). But it would be impossible to anticipate everything and therefore have dozens of checkboxes that would need to be kept up to date. So I was thinking, if the temp fields could contain macros, I or other users could add macros instead of numbers that would check these repeatable "effect" items and return the value which would then be the value of the Temp field. But you are correct, it is exactly the same as the user entering numbers in Temp fields. I was just thinking of ways to implement it with fewer clicks for the user, without also making it totally dependent on a database of rules. I was really more like brainstorming to see what people thought. I guess if I become a mentor i can write some javascript to do that. It might help me practice since I don't do any development at work anymore! :)

I've noticed that the condition section is missing the shaken, frightened and panicked conditions. I am looking into adding those when I add energy drain. I was thinking of adding them as a radio button group because they're a natural progression. Is this something that people would want to see or would they be better as individual checkboxes?

Which actually affect the sheet? Just meaning, that Shaken covers the -2, and the additional effects for frightened and panicked wouldn't necessarily be reflected in the sheet.

true, so in reality all we need is shaken because that's the only one that actually changes things and the others do the same as shaken mechanically.

Samuel T. said: true, so in reality all we need is shaken because that's the only one that actually changes things and the others do the same as shaken mechanically. Only Sam can comment on why Shaken was the only condition included of the three, but I think you're correct. Frightened and Panicked could be added, but they really wouldn't affect the sheet's stats beyond Shaken's -2. Other than checking the condition's box, no one sees what conditions are in effect. Now, if we were posting the current applicable Condition(s) using the roll template's logic... :-)

I was looking more into it and sickened and shaken actually contain the same mechanical changes so I see why Sam didn't include shaken, frightened, or panicked. What makes me wonder is why Sam didn't indicate this at all. What I propose is changing the name of Sickened to be "Sickened / Shaken".

Honestly, he was working on the conditions when he took a "hiatus". I think he may have had more planned... I like your idea to change the name. Might be fine to just change the name in the conditions area, but keep the attribute name the same for simplicity?

Yeah that was my plan. I have also gone and fixed the tooltips for the broken conditions so they actually show a minus sign instead of their unknown character.

Thanks Samuel. I've added attack,dmg,crit confirm, crit dmg to the pf_spell roll template for anyone that wants to add spell-based attacks to their macros. I'll add some other suggestions to the NPC section that have been brought up. Time is the enemy...

I was almost finished iimplementating the energy drain last night when my internet crapped out. I'll try to get it done today and then I'll need your help Vince to get it sent to the roll20 team

NP Samuel. Congrats on upping to Mentor.

I made this video for my players on how to create simple macros for the pathfinder sheet by dragging them, or making new ones. Some of you may find it useful. Edit: uploaded to YouTube. My initial attempt failed, this video is playable now: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkGUZdAG99g" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkGUZdAG99g</a> The hilarious thing about this video (to my group) is that the character I used belongs to a player that constantly rolls 1s, and you can see how many 1s I roll in the video. It's like he's cursed.

I'd recommending uploading the video on youtube. The load time is really long for me on using one drive.

chris b. said: I made this video for my players on how to create simple macros for the pathfinder sheet by dragging them, or making new ones. Some of you may find it useful. It is found here on my OneDrive site: <a href="http://1drv.ms/1zl1uKf" rel="nofollow">http://1drv.ms/1zl1uKf</a> The hilarious thing about this video (to my group) is that the character I used belongs to a player that constantly rolls 1s, and you can see how many 1s I roll in the video. It's like he's cursed. Thanks for sharing the video Chris. I can relate to being cursed. :-)

Alright folks now that we have access to nested inline rolls (which are a beautiful, lovely thing), I need your guy's help decided how you want the character sheet tooltips to be displayed now. Current tooltip view The attack row like you guys are used to seeing. Option 1: Combine the group the sub modifiers together. So we have something like this: 1d20 + bab + str-mod + ... I know that there is still a lot of numbers there, but you have to admit it still looks a hell of a lot better than it did before. (Pay no attention to the fact that this person has a -14. I am working on a new treat for you guys). Option 2: Combine all of the submodifiers together to give you a total amount. Like this: 1d20 + melee attack bonus So which version do you guys what to see? And before anyone gets any crazy ideas, currently I do not see a way of making this a toggleable ability.

Congrats on upping to Mentor Samuel and thank you for digging into the sheet. Much appreciated! I like the clean look of a combined/total modifier myself. I haven't played around with the nested inlines enough to know if descriptors within single brackets can be added, but that would also help.

I tend to prefer to have descriptors within single brackets that say what type the bonus is or where the bonus originates. I know it isnt clean, but that is how I myself would personally prefer it to be displayed. On another topic, Pathfinder recently released Pathfinder Unchained which is Pathfinders version of 3.5's Unearthed Arcana. I was wondering if you could include a Wound Threshold calculator within the sheet. What I imagine is after the Maximum HP, there being Grazed HP (which will be 3/4ths Maximum HP), Wounded HP (which will be 1/2 Maximum HP), and Critical HP (which will be 1/4th Maximum HP).

@Simon, I am already working on the wound threshold as we speak :)

I like the all in one the most, since we can actually see it. My players at least know what is being added and when they have been learning it know something is missing just from the total. something like +2 +1 +1 +1 doesn't give much more information. Also, with so many numbers appearing it goes off the side of the browser and I can't see half of what is added. Unless you know a way to correct that.

The stuff going off the side of browser is unfortunately above my pay grade. Its not something that can be fixed with just html and css. The roll20 devs would have to fix it. So far we are at 2 for the all collapsed into one. Am I right?

I use inspect element and modify the css to temporarily remove the text-align:right when testing the tipsy. You can use the extension Stylish to make your own css overriding the roll templates css.

Another thing that I would like to see added to the Pathfinder Sheet from 'Pathfinder Unchained' are the 2 new skills Lore (__) and Artistry (__).

Just fyi, I believe the reason that your tooltips are going outside the bounds of the window is due to the long strings of numbers and operands with no spaces between them. If you can add spaces between them, it should allow the tooltip to properly expand away from the edge of the screen on right-aligned inline rolls. Bad: 0+1+0+0+0+0+1+0+0 Good: 1 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 1 + 0

Simon said: Another thing that I would like to see added to the Pathfinder Sheet from 'Pathfinder Unchained' are the 2 new skills Lore (__) and Artistry (__). You could temporarily do this in the skills section by using the misc skills at the bottom of the section until we have them officially implemented.

HoneyBadger said: Just fyi, I believe the reason that your tooltips are going outside the bounds of the window is due to the long strings of numbers and operands with no spaces between them. If you can add spaces between them, it should allow the tooltip to properly expand away from the edge of the screen on right-aligned inline rolls. Bad: 0+1+0+0+0+0+1+0+0 Good: 1 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 1 + 0 Looking at the code as far as I can see the operands have spaces around them. They get smooshed together on roll20's end when they are evaluated.

Ah, yeah it does. I forgot that and was testing in my api script that adds spaces back in before sending the output to chat.

+1 for collapsing into one bonus sum

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll collapse them all into just the roll and the total.

Given the options as presented there Sam, I also vote for just collapsing them all. If it were possible to have them listed as +2 Str +1 Focus etc, and to have it skip anything that's +0, then it'd be good to have it listed out; until / unless that's possible, just collapsing them all so that the actual die roll is easy to see in the tooltip is the better option.

Zan Thrax said: Given the options as presented there Sam, I also vote for just collapsing them all. If it were possible to have them listed as +2 Str +1 Focus etc, and to have it skip anything that's +0, then it'd be good to have it listed out; until / unless that's possible, just collapsing them all so that the actual die roll is easy to see in the tooltip is the better option. There's kind of an issue with adding descriptive text to nested inline rolls... If you add a "dummy" 0d0 roll to the nested inline it seems to accomplish most of the desired effect. The Pathfinder sheet could really benefit from nested inline rolls and descriptive text. <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/1898891/nested-i" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/1898891/nested-i</a>...

Thanks vince for figuring out a work around. Zan, I am not aware of a way to hide modifiers that only result in 0. If some one does no however I'd certainly be interested in something like that. So until we can figure out a way to hide 0's my concern that by adding descriptive text to the rolls it would do nothing but exacerbate the current issue by making the rolls even longer. As we can see in my option 1 above, even with the things collapsed to the tier 1 we still have enough 0's to push the tooltip beyond it's capability.

For those of you who might be interesting in trying out a "beta" release of the pathfinder character sheet you can find it here: html: <a href="https://gist.github.com/jarquafelmu/b283aa8717af24" rel="nofollow">https://gist.github.com/jarquafelmu/b283aa8717af24</a>... css <a href="https://gist.github.com/jarquafelmu/a3c5e69c140601" rel="nofollow">https://gist.github.com/jarquafelmu/a3c5e69c140601</a>... This new version includes support for energy drain, nested inline rolling and the new wound threshold. Due to the nature of a beta please report any bugs found. I've tried to squash as many possible but I'm sure something has escaped.

Simon said: Another thing that I would like to see added to the Pathfinder Sheet from 'Pathfinder Unchained' are the 2 new skills Lore (__) and Artistry (__). Your suggestion brings up something we should probably discuss on the forum. Should there be any restrictions on what is included on the Pathfinder community sheet and if so, what are they? Core, any Paizo published book including AP's, 3rd Party w/official pathfinder game compatible , etc.? With the release of the Pathfinder Unchained book, I'm predicting more requests for optional/alternative rulesets. Often a gaming group along with their GM decide on the scope of books/rules that are allowed for their gaming sessions. Should we consider ourselves a "BIG" gaming group and make the decision for the community? I like some alternate rules but feel they need to be optional on the sheet. ie the Wound Threshold system (BTW, I personally like this addition) that's being added. Maybe alternate rules added to the sheet should be marked/formatted as such? Thoughts?

I don't know how dynamic the character sheet can be programmed. e.g. including a "configuration" tab where such additional non-core content can be (de-)activated. Multiple Sheet branches might increase the maintenance-overhead but be a alternative . I personally don't want to support every possible add-on that is currently out and will be out in the future in my game. SO depending on how severe their effects are, an alternative sheet version to choose (and force my players to use) would be the easiest solution for me as a user of the sheet and a consumer of your awesome work :)

The only two reasons why I brought up the Wound Threshold system, and the two new skills: 1st: They are 1st Party Content published by Paizo.. 2nd: Can be utilized even without using the specific rulings.. (i.e. with the damage threshold one could say the creature is critically wounded without actually using the penalties associated with it; or in the case with the skills, one can put ranks into the skills without even utilizing "background skills"). Would I like support for specific third party content which I considered widely popular among the pathfinder community (i.e. Dreamscarred Press: Ultimate Psionics, Akashic Mysteris, and Path of War, or Drop Dead Studios: Spheres of Power?) Yes, I very much would appreciate it. But it was made quite clear in previous threads that 1st Party Content has full priority, and I am okay with that. Does that mean that I think that every variant or optional/alternative ruleset needs to be included? No, but I also thought that the three things I proposed would be rather simple additions..

Simon said: The only two reasons why I brought up the Wound Threshold system, and the two new skills: 1st: They are 1st Party Content published by Paizo.. 2nd: Can be utilized even without using the specific rulings.. (i.e. with the damage threshold one could say the creature is critically wounded without actually using the penalties associated with it; or in the case with the skills, one can put ranks into the skills without even utilizing "background skills"). Would I like support for specific third party content which I considered widely popular among the pathfinder community (i.e. Dreamscarred Press: Ultimate Psionics, Akashic Mysteris, and Path of War, or Drop Dead Studios: Spheres of Power?) Yes, I very much would appreciate it. But it was made quite clear in previous threads that 1st Party Content has full priority, and I am okay with that. Does that mean that I think that every variant or optional/alternative ruleset needs to be included? No, but I also thought that the three things I proposed would be rather simple additions.. Thanks Simon. To be clear, I just wanted to get a discussion going. Mission accomplished. :-) By no means was I trying to shoot down your's or anyone's suggestions. We have a great sheet and I only see it getting better. I think Samuel was already working on adding Wound Threshold and I personally don't see a problem adding the skills.

First off, this is almost getting to the point where we need a new thread. Simon said: ...with the damage threshold one could say the creature is critically wounded without actually using the penalties associated with it; Because of how the wound threshold is implemented if you select one of the three status marks you will incur the penalties associated. Simon said: ...in the case with the skills, one can put ranks into the skills without even utilizing "background skills"). I could totally see adding the new skills from pathfinder unchained. The difficult thing would be to rule how do we incorperate skill grouping and the like? Do we have multiple sections that can be "toggled" depending on which variant you're using? Just a thought, to do skill grouping in the current sheet you could just assign the same ranks to any item in a particular group and then just ignore the "max ranks" at the top.

The attack buttons in the sheet do not seem to reference the same thing. The button next to the actual attack entry (right next to the Enhance field) references everything in the attack entry, including any custom additions to the attack's macro text. The button in the row of buttons at the top of the attacks sheet (the one that has the mouseover for %{selected|repeating_weapon_1_Attack} seems to call the default Macro Text only rather than what I've actually put in the macro text.

Samuel T. said: First off, this is almost getting to the point where we need a new thread. Simon said: ...with the damage threshold one could say the creature is critically wounded without actually using the penalties associated with it; Because of how the wound threshold is implemented if you select one of the three status marks you will incur the penalties associated. Simon said: ...in the case with the skills, one can put ranks into the skills without even utilizing "background skills"). I could totally see adding the new skills from pathfinder unchained. The difficult thing would be to rule how do we incorperate skill grouping and the like? Do we have multiple sections that can be "toggled" depending on which variant you're using? Just a thought, to do skill grouping in the current sheet you could just assign the same ranks to any item in a particular group and then just ignore the "max ranks" at the top. I just added Artistry and Lore to the Skills and NPC sections with a title="Optional Ruleset" for the tipsy. I included them in the total skill ranks calculation also. Will this work?

Scott C. said: The attack buttons in the sheet do not seem to reference the same thing. The button next to the actual attack entry (right next to the Enhance field) references everything in the attack entry, including any custom additions to the attack's macro text. The button in the row of buttons at the top of the attacks sheet (the one that has the mouseover for %{selected|repeating_weapon_1_Attack} seems to call the default Macro Text only rather than what I've actually put in the macro text. That's correct Scott. Due to the nature of the repeatable sections you can't reference them in macros outside the character sheet. As a work around Sam (the original sheet author) gave the row of buttons at the top that references a default version of the attacks. This enables you to use the attack in an outside macro but it does not respect any custom macro information.

Vince said: I just added Artistry and Lore to the Skills and NPC sections with a title="Optional Ruleset" for the tipsy. I included them in the total skill ranks calculation also. Will this work? That should work, what ability modifier did you give them? I couldn't find one.

INT for both. I did a little searching. But disinformation is rampant on the net. :-) EDIT: this thread(not official mind you) <a href="http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s6zp?unchained-how-its-the-new-skill-system" rel="nofollow">http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s6zp?unchained-how-its-the-new-skill-system</a>

Just a little off topic, but is it possible to have repeating fields inside repeating fields? The reason why I ask, is on the Spell Tab, what if you had one repeating tab that would create a Spells per day table followed by the Spell input repeatable fields. If this was possible, it would be giving support for 3+ Spellcasting classes for those who need it, or only 1 for those who dont... Just an idea...

Simon said: Just a little off topic, but is it possible to have repeating fields inside repeating fields? The reason why I ask, is on the Spell Tab, what if you had one repeating tab that would create a Spells per day table followed by the Spell input repeatable fields. If this was possible, it would be giving support for 3+ Spellcasting classes for those who need it, or only 1 for those who dont... Just an idea... My guess is that it wouldn't work due to the limitation of repeatable items, but I haven't tried it personally... I like the idea of an "accordion" spell section. I'll report back... UPDATE: GV confirmed that nested fieldsets won't work. I tried a quick test case and my brain nearly exploded. The problem is that repeatable items don't even exist until they are created. Roll20 keeps track of the attributes for repeatable_item_X row by row. However, there isn't anything built into roll20 that handles a subset of repeatable_item_X. Clear as mud. :-)

Karankwan said: Hi guys, Just a small reminder. I don't know if anything happened regarding my suggestion. If it's only accessible for Mentors that's fine, since the campaign where I ran into those issues making me write a suggestion is run by a Mentor-GM. I just would need to know where he could get the code. Thanks! /K The next Pull Request for the sheet includes "some" of what you were asking for Karankwan. SR selector now includes Yes, No, Yes(Harmless) and No(Harmless). Added Concentration check as well as modifiers for both CL-check and Concentration-check to the NPC section for Spell-Like Abilities and Spells . In regards to adding an additional SLA section; currently the NPC tab has the Spell-Like Ability using spellclass-0 based attributes and Spells use spellclass-1 based attributes which essentially gives an NPC/Monster two caster classes if needed. We can add a third caster class by creating a second SLA section and assigning it spellclass-2 based attributes in order to maintain backward compatibility for anyone using macros that utilize spellclass-0 and spellclass-1 based attributes. That said, I'm not sure how often this feature would come into play. I did a quick survey of upper-end CR monsters and didn't notice any that had multiple caster levels. I'm sure they're out there and upper level multi-class NPC's are probably more likely the candidates for this addition. Please add your thoughts/suggestions. Cheers

With the understanding that we might be able to implement everything, I would love to see a wishlist of features you guys would love to see for the character sheet that is either: a) currently not being done, or b) being done but very poorly. Also I have just made it much easier for you guys to select things like conditions and brought the sheet more inline with the HTML standard.

I took the liberty of creating a new thread since this one was getting huge . Please continue on: Pathfinder sheet thread 4: Life after Sam Cheers