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Coming Soon: Moving Character Sheet Tab before Bio & Info Tab

1667348068
Carlos S.
Roll20 Team
Hi everyone! We are making a minor change in the next couple of weeks, and I wanted to give you all a head up in case it impacts any Mods. When opening a character, we plan to make the Character Sheet tab the first tab and Bio & Info the second tab. Today, when users open a character, it automatically opens the Bio & Info tab (the first tab). For the overwhelming majority of existing users who actually want the Character Sheet tab, this is a minor annoyance as they have an extra click to get the data they want. For new users who expect a Character Sheet when they create a character, this can become a major pain point since they don’t know to go digging through tabs to find the character sheet. They might not even know if Roll20 offers character sheets or might think it's a premium feature. We won't change the Token Hotkeys (Shift+click for Bio & Info and Alt+click Character Sheet). We intend on releasing this change the week of November 14th. Thanks!
1667661157
I have all character sheets visible to all players. Currently, when a player opens a character sheet for which they do not have edit permission, all they can see is the Bio and Info page. Will that stay the same?
1667663061
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Players will not be able to see a tab they don't have permission for.
1667678872
Oh, I don't like this. I use Bios as the character sheets :-(
1667680226
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Gallaher said: Oh, I don't like this. I use Bios as the character sheets :-( If you use no character sheet, then it should open to the bio. There won't be a character sheet tab.
1668549045
Carlos S.
Roll20 Team
Now Live! When opening a character, the character sheet will be the first tab. If you'd like the ability to open to the Bio & Info tab instead, please vote on product board here .
1668550149
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
I very much like the principle here. Far more likely to want to get to sheet/statblock. First Issue: When editing the bio page, saving changes returns you to the sheet, not the bio page you were just editing. This is counterintuitive, and makes editing the bio cumbersome. navigate to bio tab edit bio save changes Expected: See your changed bio page Actual: You are moved to the sheet tab and must navigate back to bio to see edits.
1668556469

Edited 1668556757
Gauss
Forum Champion
I agree with Keith, due to how the Avatar impacts the view of the Bio & Info tab formatting getting things to look a certain way on the Bio & Info tab is not going to be a simple one and done edit process. Previously: Edit, make changes to the Bio & Info tab, save, look things over, re-edit.... Now: Edit, make changes to the Bio & Info tab, save, click on Bio & Info tab , look things over, re-edit.... A new step has been added to an already labor intensive process to get things to look right due to the Avatar image. 
1668563823
Sorry, but this doesn't seem to fix a problem anyone I know of was seriously having, and seems to make an already somewhat cumbersome process (editing bio and info) even more laborious to save people 1 click with a mouse. Would it be possible to implement this as a display option? So players and GMs who would rather open on character sheets and do not use Bio and Info can do so, while those (like in my group) who make extensive use of the Bio and Info tab can continue on as before? 
1668576759

Edited 1668576798
This change does not make me happy. I have hundreds of sheets across many games and like others have said, I use the bio as the sheet, and I use the crunch only when I need it. In the middle of games where I'm GMing, I want to quickly look at the stat blocks I've neatly summarized, not a sprawling sheet full of widgets and click buttons. Can we please have this be a game setting, like how we can change the position of the bars or the colors?
1668579823

Edited 1668580384
I, too, really dislike this change (and already voted on the Product Portal). We use the Bio & Info Tab for direct Infos to the Characters and I as a gm really need to look THAT Info up from time to time. Now there is this 1 extra - unnecessary - click instead of just opening the sheet from the journal! I really do not understand why the editing process was NOT tested before releasing this (proof given by Keith and Gauss)! Otherwise this extra step Keith mentioned would NOT be necessary... Well... I hope many people vote for the Bio & Info to be the number 1 tab again...
1668614630
One other small issue. If a Character is set to be in everyone's journals, it used to be that when they clicked on that character it would bring up the Bio and Info Page so they could see the avatar image and the description of the character.  Now you have to actually click on the Bio and Info Tab to view it even if you don't have access to the Character Sheet.  It may not be much but I can see a lot of players not noticing the tab and wondering why the pages in the journal are just blank now when before when they clicked on them they got a picture and details of the NPC
1668623972
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Oenanthe said: One other small issue. If a Character is set to be in everyone's journals, it used to be that when they clicked on that character it would bring up the Bio and Info Page so they could see the avatar image and the description of the character.  Now you have to actually click on the Bio and Info Tab to view it even if you don't have access to the Character Sheet.  It may not be much but I can see a lot of players not noticing the tab and wondering why the pages in the journal are just blank now when before when they clicked on them they got a picture and details of the NPC Agreed. The code recognizes if no sheet is present in the game and opens to the bio page in that case, but when the user has no sheet access , bio page should be the default.
Yeah this is a pretty horrible fix for the problem, ngl
Agreed. The code recognizes if no sheet is present in the game and opens to the bio page in that case, but when the user has no sheet access , bio page should be the default. Good point, some of my players have been saying the same thing. They can't see the other stuff anyway, so it should just see the bio. And if they can make this change for players, please give us a toggle to do it for GMs. I understand the new player confusion angle, but what about players like me who have built thousands of hours of content (and habits!) based on the way the system worked before? I think we should be given some grace.
1668634270
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
It looks like this has been addressed. I just tested with my  Dummy Account  and if no edit access has been granted, a player's character journal opens directly to the bio page.
1668667584

Edited 1668667643
keithcurtis said: It looks like this has been addressed. I just tested with my  Dummy Account  and if no edit access has been granted, a player's character journal opens directly to the bio page. Yes, this has been adressed. But it still opens the character sheet (first tab now) after clicking on "Edit" for editing Bio & Info, Uploading avatar and token etc. Votes are increasing on the Product Portal...
1668700429

Edited 1668700451
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
True. I was addressing only that particular issue.
1668717570
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
To clarify, although I pointed out what I feel to be issues with the editing, I think that most users (not all, of course—witnessed by this thread) are more affected by the extra click previously required to get to the statblock during play. Keep in mind that the people voting for a revision are going to be the only votes, as asked. Even if a dozen votes are collected, that means not a lot. Roll20 gathers play style info from many sources. Very few changes to any system receive a lot of attention. People post in order to effect change. If people agree with a change, there is very little impetus to add their voice.
1668756961

Edited 1668757082
You also have users, that take things as they are and don't complain just because they don't know how or use roll20 not very often... And since there is also a suggestion in the forums pointing to that and suggesting to implement a switch on what Tab to be No. 1 in the sheet, there are people annoyed by this... This change would NOT be that bad IF (and only if) after Editing the Sheet (Bio & Info, Avatar etc.) it puts you back to the Bio & Info Tab and NOT on the first Tab (which now is the character sheet)... Though following the suggestion mentioned earlier, I'd like to have a switch, too! (so that I could select which tab should be No. 1 for me)... keithcurtis said: To clarify, although I pointed out what I feel to be issues with the editing, I think that most users (not all, of course—witnessed by this thread) are more affected by the extra click previously required to get to the statblock during play. Keep in mind that the people voting for a revision are going to be the only votes, as asked. Even if a dozen votes are collected, that means not a lot. Roll20 gathers play style info from many sources. Very few changes to any system receive a lot of attention. People post in order to effect change. If people agree with a change, there is very little impetus to add their voice.
1668784781
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
In my marketplace products, I have some nonstandard NPCs (traps, vehicles, siege weapons) use only the bio page and the attributes and abilities tab. The bio page had all the description of the object, with hyperlinks activating the different abilities (such as a trap using a template roll for a dexterity save or the creature takes damage). Customers are just going to see an empty character sheet and skip the bio tab now.
1668893340
Please give us an option to change it back to the way it was. It makes getting to my notes on the bios of everyone a pain. 
1668918678
Gauss
Forum Champion
Garrett H. said: Please give us an option to change it back to the way it was. It makes getting to my notes on the bios of everyone a pain.  Reminder, please use the feedback mechanism provided here .
1669160601
Hi, I use both a custom Character Sheet for my players, then I use my own creature template for NPCs that I have in the Bio, As a DM can you set up an option so I can revert this to open bios first? Its getting very frustrating to tab back on lots of NPCs just to see their stats.
1669217259
GM
Pro
Garrett H. said: Please give us an option to change it back to the way it was. It makes getting to my notes on the bios of everyone a pain.  If this feature were a toggle, I think it'd be a win/win for however anyone likes it.  But this is surprisingly annoying change given how minor it is.  
1669233881
Personally, I (and my players) generally like the new setup. I only have one quibble: when you shift-click on a token to open that token's sheet, you get the Bio&Info page, not the character sheet as before. The system should be consistent. Shift-click on a token should open the character sheet.
1669234169
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Alt-click on the token to get the Character Sheet.
1669240333

Edited 1669240494
Gauss
Forum Champion
Saul J. said: Personally, I (and my players) generally like the new setup. I only have one quibble: when you shift-click on a token to open that token's sheet, you get the Bio&Info page, not the character sheet as before. The system should be consistent. Shift-click on a token should open the character sheet. I just tested the Dev server (which didn't get this update). Based on that I don't believe the Alt+click vs Shift+click behavior changed.  Based on memory (and some forum research) it has always been Alt+click to open the character sheet while Shift+click opened the Bio & Info tab. 
1669454231

Edited 1669454535
I am not a fan of this feature.  It makes it seem less like a roleplay game and more of a mechanics game.  It also triggers my OCD a lot as I am used to things being RP = left, mechanics = right. When I open my sheet, I don't see a character.. I see statistics and mechanics.  I want to see what I write and my character. Is there an option to turn this off and change it back so that Bio & Info is back in its original place?
There is a link to the product portal where you can vote for Bio&Info being No. 1 again... it has 120+ Votes right now... Daeva said: I am not a fan of this feature.  It makes it seem less like a roleplay game and more of a mechanics game.  It also triggers my OCD a lot as I am used to things being RP = left, mechanics = right. When I open my sheet, I don't see a character.. I see statistics and mechanics.  I want to see what I write and my character. Is there an option to turn this off and change it back so that Bio & Info is back in its original place?
1669997834
Good change as far as I and my players see it we/they use the Bio & Info tab faorly infrequently, maybe once or twice per game.  I guess a switch to allow a gm to revert to the old ordering would make sense.