[Pathfinder] Feedback Needed!

A new version of the sheet is available on the beta site. We have been hard at work increasing usability of the sheet, especially for new players of either Pathfinder or Roll20. Many ideas from our recent survey have been incorporated. New functionality assists GMs to manage monsters.  This is our second and last round of feedback on the beta changes. Please  go to the beta site and do the following:   Export a character from your current campaign, and import it into the Beta Campaign. Please note to us any errors you see. (These commands are available at your campaign page). Pay special attention to hit points and the class & race grid, and spell-like-abiltities after adding you will not be able to see/edit the new character until we give you permission. please message Vince with the character name and your roll20 username adding your roll20 username to the charname will make this easier. Secondly, examine the sheet’s ease of use, and report below any positive or negative experiences you have. Is the wording on the settings page clear? Wording on fields clear? Positioning and appearance? Do button images make sense? What do you think of the compact view and what can be improved? Is it easy to switch to settings and back? UI Improvements A lot of this is based on feedback from our survey: Settings page redone and simplified. Some users didn't even know it was there before. Settings and recalc now at upper left to be more prominent (settings page is open by default the first time you open sheet) and options grouped to make more sense. Accessibility options moved to top of settings page. Verdana font option added for easier reading. Compact view and Expanded view available, via the “pencil” button at the left under the Pathfinder logo. Compact view contains all the important details for play, with less of the options/fields used for leveling up getting in the way. Users can hide fields complex macro and extra fields they don't need, including complex choices are simplified by default. The large macro roll fields are hidden by default , expert users can display them for editing. Lots of hover descriptions added, aria-labels added for screenreader users. More white space and attempts to make sheet more pleasing.  Top area shrunk to leave more space for the sheet itself. Copy of all menu buttons appears at top (can be hidden) for ease of access or dragging. Race has been added to the class grid, so it is easier to create a PC with monster hit dice, or add class levels to a monster, and see how totals for hp and other fields are calculated. Some extra intermediate fields have been added to hp calculation display, so users can see what it is doing. New Features New settings: ignore encumbrance, auto-calculate hit points, uncanny dodge, use HD instead of BAB for CMD. etc. These are now streamlined into easy to check on and off boxes on the settings page, instead of the user having to figure out all the fields that they need to change. New menus for chat: Special abilities, Ability checks, Saving Throws, printout of Defense values, Items (for items with charges etc) menu buttons added.  "Show" in menu checkbox for items and abilities to only display certain ones. Inventory improvements, one list for tracking carried inventory, and syncing it with armor and weapons so there is one place to enter data. Another textbox for other equipments/land/etc Easily generate attack rows (that remain synced) from spells, items, and spell-like-abilities Monsters and NPCs now use the same fields as PCs, which means no more field values changing on GMs! Also means buffs and conditions will correctly update the monster stats. Monsters now use the CON modifier to hp, etc. (except for undead, of course) Monster/NPC compendium import section and simplified statblock view. (importing a monster can take up to 10 seconds as it reverse engineers the statblock) includes creating attack and ability rows. Change name of first attack out of iterative attacks. Custom grouping for attack menu Spells optionally grouped by school on chat menu. Simplified spells per day totals section. Hero Lab import added

I imported a Character (Derwyrdd Briarheart), however, due to particular settings I can only view the Bio tab, and am unable to manage the character sheet. I am thus unable to verify how anything converted or changed.

Simon said: I imported a Character (Derwyrdd Briarheart), however, due to particular settings I can only view the Bio tab, and am unable to manage the character sheet. I am thus unable to verify how anything converted or changed. I'll adjust the permissions.  Just a sec... Update:Done. moved your character to Imported Characters folder as well.   Thanks for testing.

Vince said: Simon said: I imported a Character (Derwyrdd Briarheart), however, due to particular settings I can only view the Bio tab, and am unable to manage the character sheet. I am thus unable to verify how anything converted or changed. I'll adjust the permissions.  Just a sec... Update:Done. moved your character to Imported Characters folder as well.   Thanks for testing. While you did in-fact move the imported character, I am still unable to view anything other than the Bio tab of Derwyrdd Briarheart.

@Simon  I must not of hit "save" after giving control.  My bad.  Should be fine now.

Okay, so I tested out the character I had imported (Derwyrdd Briarheart), and everything works out just fine, except for the Pink Button for Spell-Like Abilities. Individually, each of the different spell-like abilities still work, but trying to use the pink "spellbook" button for the spell-like abilities fail.  Suggestion: Include 'show' checkboxes like you did with the racial traits and feats section in the "spell-like abilities" section as I am sure there are "spell-like abilities" that are not triggered/cast but are constantly active (of course most are Race/Class abilities). I like the layout, and think that the settings page is clear. Although when testing out Hit Points, I was unsure if HD was meaning the Hit Dice such d8 or d10, or if it was referring to Hit Dice as in an 18 HD dragon.

Thanks Simon.  We'll figure out what's "not going on" with the SLA command button.  I like your suggestion to add "show" to SLA's. HD is for hit-dice.  Hovering over the column header "Hit Die" should also display "hit point die".  #HD(racial hp stats) is for the number of dice. Thanks for your help.

I have noticed that ID fields are not being populated. Other then that after converting my entire campaign seems to have converted just fine, other then needing to adjust a couple settings here and there. I'm loving the new inventory page. I'm running a game with the sheet tomorrow so i shall see if anything breaks.

there are some bugs in the current beta i fixed which are not deployed to beta yet. (like auto-hp ) check here to see the current status and latest code: <a href="https://trello.com/b/URUKukGw" rel="nofollow">https://trello.com/b/URUKukGw</a>

Although I don't know if it is appropriate for this thread or for the General Pathfinder thread, I have some requests: Include in the Defenses Table add a second drop down for Ability. There are SEVERAL classes that grant the ability to add a second bonus to AC and CMD. The sheet could have its second Ability Drop-box default to -None- but it would allow it to become better streamlined: In the Buffs Section add an additional buff that that says AC (FF & T), for a bonus to AC that increases both Flat-footed and Touch AC. For example a Deflection bonus to AC is still added against touch attacks as well as attacks while flat-footed.

Saves also can have a second ability score, such as for paladins. these have been added to the enhancement list at <a href="https://trello.com/b/URUKukGw" rel="nofollow">https://trello.com/b/URUKukGw</a> We are (attempting to) freeze new features for v1, then start adding them after we release the current beta. not sure when that will be. This release is mostly focused on making the sheet easier to use. But i can see a config flag that says "add 2nd ability to ac/cmd" Would it apply to flat footed and/or touch? or is that just an AC&CMD bonus. once we add bonus type to buffs, we have to decide if we automatically add the bonus to the other defense types, or if we make the user do it. For instance a sacred/profane bonus to AC also applies to CMD. but since we didn't have bonus type in there now, we just added 2 separate fields so the user can do it (they'd have to know the rule). I think adding the rules automatically will be helpful to the user, but might be confusing if there is already a separate CMD.

chris b. said: But i can see a config flag that says "add 2nd ability to ac/cmd" Would it apply to flat footed and/or touch? or is that just an AC&CMD bonus. It actually depends on the class. Monk's wisdom bonus to AC & CMD applies to Touch & Flat-footed AC. But I also believe I recall some some particular archetypes for other classes which dont apply to either Flat-footed or Touch. So having it as a Config menu option would be best.

Okay, I did some more testing of the Beta Sheet, and besides the issue with the Pink 'Spell-Like Abilities' button (which is still a problem), I found that magic items are not showing themselves as equipped in the allotted slots.

I think i got the spell like abilities working finally, for PCs and NPCs&nbsp; I decided to actually test them :) It will be in the next beta build Vince deploys

chris b. said: I think i got the spell like abilities working finally, for PCs and NPCs&nbsp; I decided to actually test them :) It will be in the next beta build Vince deploys Deployed. &nbsp;;-)

Okay, so I tested out the Spell-Like Abilities button, and they work well enough, although specific changes mean that I have to rewrite parts of each (because I had written out and calculated individualized formulas for DC's, Range, effect, etc; which has been slightly disrupted) Anyways, I see that Custom Spell Level & Custom Caster Level are options for dropbox, but I cannot for the life of me see where I can fill out these fields. If directions could be given to fill out these field, I would greatly appreciate it.

those just refer to the number input fields to the right. so it's that dropdown plus a constant, or if you choose "custom" it's just the constant. I tried to keep the SLAs simple, not as many features as the spells have. They also use autocalc instead of sheetworkers. I considered changing the "constants" to an equation field, or, because SLAs use the autocalc system, it could be a rolltime macro field. (so you could put queries in), would that be helpful? Also, range is probably confusing split into 2 rows...it acts just like spells (or should, i don't remember if i finished it) Finally, it only says "per day" we were trying to figure out how to add other frequency types, like "at will", "constant", but if it's not just SLAs but other abilities, then it can be expanded (per rage, per day per target (for hexes) etc) and was considering adding just a fill in text box for the frequency instead of having it say "per day" , not sure how to proceed.

chris b. said: those just refer to the number input fields to the right. so it's that dropdown plus a constant, or if you choose "custom" it's just the constant. I tried to keep the SLAs simple, not as many features as the spells have. They also use autocalc instead of sheetworkers. I considered changing the "constants" to an equation field, or, because SLAs use the autocalc system, it could be a rolltime macro field. (so you could put queries in), would that be helpful? Changing the "constants" to an equation field would really help, as it would mean not having to update each Spell-Like Ability each level-up.

ok will do that. note&nbsp; the dropdowns are already using the level (either a certain class level, or total @{level} ) and the spell level is either the same level, or that level divided by 2 (for the average monster SLA). and range just uses the same level. so the caster level, DC, and range should adjust automatically for default characters. I set each SLA to be able to have an individual casterlevel and caster ability score , and equivalent spell level, in case they were from different sources, like a racial-trait vs a class.

chris b. said: ok will do that. note&nbsp; the dropdowns are already using the level (either a certain class level, or total @{level} ) and the spell level is either the same level, or that level divided by 2 (for the average monster SLA). and range just uses the same level. so the caster level, DC, and range should adjust automatically for default characters. I set each SLA to be able to have an individual casterlevel and caster ability score , and equivalent spell level, in case they were from different sources, like a racial-trait vs a class. Thing is, all my games utilize ' Spheres of Power ' which is an alternate spellcasting system. In Spheres of Power, every spellcasting class has one of three Caster Level Progressions: High Casters: Have a CL equal to their class level (Ex: Wizard or Cleric) Mid Casters: Have a CL equal to 3/4 their class level (Ex: Bard or Hunter) Low Casters: Have a CL equal to 1/2 their class level (Ex: Ranger or Paladin) Those that multiclass into different spellcasting classes have their CL totaled (similar to BAB). Thus if a character was a Cleric/Wizard, they totaled their levels in those classes to determine their CL; whereas if the character was Cleric/Paladin, they would add their Cleric level + 1/2 their Paladin levels to determine their CL. DC's are equal to 10 + 1/2 CL + Ability Modifier. So as you can clearly see, a custom CL progression is required, and thus why I am interested in using an equation field, instead of a constant.

ok.. i see ... i was going to add the custom spell level to spells too cause i know you were asking for it, but was going to wait till we released v1, we are struggling to fix everything we are finding already . but it's not forgotten!&nbsp; huh, i could also add a dropdown right next to it, would be narrow, to multiple the cl-basis by 1, 3/4, 1/2, no one would use it. or maybe i could hide it,

chris b. said: ok.. i see ... i was going to add the custom spell level to spells too cause i know you were asking for it, but was going to wait till we released v1, we are struggling to fix everything we are finding already . but it's not forgotten!&nbsp; huh, i could also add a dropdown right next to it, would be narrow, to multiple the cl-basis by 1, 3/4, 1/2, no one would use it. or maybe i could hide it, I would be fine with just an equation field, because a dropdown with multiple CL basis would only be useful if they are either single-classed or multi-classed within the same chasis.

Look at the SLAs now. I made them a little easier to see what is happening and what to do, adding some better hover text. If the sheet is already upgraded to v1, to see the new macros go to the Settings page and uncheck "Ability macros V1" then hit recalc, and it will resync the large roll macro fields.

chris b. said: Look at the SLAs now. I made them a little easier to see what is happening and what to do, adding some better hover text. If the sheet is already upgraded to v1, to see the new macros go to the Settings page and uncheck "Ability macros V1" then hit recalc, and it will resync the large roll macro fields. Okay, so Derwyrdd Briarheart has in the Attributes & Abilitites tab, an attribute called CL, with the following value: [[(@{Derwyrdd Briarsoul|spellclass-0-level}) + (@{spellclass-0-level-misc}) + (floor((3*(@{Derwyrdd Briarsoul|spellclass-1-level}))/4)) + (@{spellclass-1-level-misc}) + (@{Derwyrdd Briarsoul|spellclass-2-level}) + (@{spellclass-2-level-misc}) +1 ENH]] In the Spell-Like Abilities section, I selected 'Custom' from the Drop-Down and then filled the equation field for CL with: @{CL} ; then for Spell Lvl Basis I also selected 'Custom' from the Drop-Down and filled the equation field with: &nbsp;(floor((@{CL})/2) . The spell-like abilities seem to be unable or partially unable to calculate these as written whenever I test them out. However, if instead of filling the equation field with @{CL} I fill them with the following code, they calculate fine (@{spellclass-0-level}) + (@{spellclass-0-level-misc}) + (floor((3*(@{spellclass-1-level}))/4)) + (@{spellclass-1-level-misc}) + (@{spellclass-2-level}) + (@{spellclass-2-level-misc}) +1 Am I misunderstanding something? Why won't filling in @{CL} work?

Throwing a guess out there... Shouldn't the value for @CL not be placed inside of inline roll? &nbsp;ie " [[ foo ]] " &nbsp;When you(or the sheet) is trying to pull a value for @{CL} you are really getting a large equation that would only be rendered in chat because of the inline roll. &nbsp;Try wrapping the value in parenthesis instead. &nbsp;ie " ( foo ) "

it works when I plug it into my character and remove the name references: I removed "Derwyrdd Briarsoul|" from the string and put it in a custom attribute called "testme" i first put just a number in to make sure it works. then I tried your string exactly then without the name. This works, and updates the&nbsp;repeating_npc-spell-like-abilities_$X_casterlevel field [[(@{spellclass-0-level}) + (@{spellclass-0-level-misc}) + (floor((3*(@{spellclass-1-level}))/4)) + (@{spellclass-1-level-misc}) + (@{spellclass-2-level}) + (@{spellclass-2-level-misc}) +1 ]]

We are thinking of putting a notes page &nbsp;up with some dummy macro fields you can name yourself for things like this, so you don't have to go find it in the attributes. or with other values so people can map them to token bars.&nbsp;

I did some more testing, and there are still some issues with the Pink Spell-Like Abilities button. Whenever I roll directly from the sheet, I get the following results: &nbsp; However, whenever I roll from the Pink Spell-Like Ability button, I get the following results: As you can see, the issue seems to originate somewhere in the code used to calculate saves. As a side note, any idea what fields the '5', '0', and '0' are supposed to be? At first, I thought that the 5 might've been CL, but I only have a CL of 4 in that ability.

are you on the latest version? I think Vince just updated it this morning, but those differences should be fixed. On mine i see the same between clicking on the row, or clicking on the button in the chat menu. The only problem is if frequency is not filled in, but even then one says "^{}" and the other says "[0]" i think.. i am working on a way to not show a row if the user did not fill &nbsp;it in. the latest says version 1.01 and the time in the footer is&nbsp;01/23/2017 6:45AM(PT)

chris b. said: are you on the latest version? I think Vince just updated it this morning, but those differences should be fixed. On mine i see the same between clicking on the row, or clicking on the button in the chat menu. The only problem is if frequency is not filled in, but even then one says "^{}" and the other says "[0]" i think.. i am working on a way to not show a row if the user did not fill &nbsp;it in. the latest says version 1.01 and the time in the footer is&nbsp;01/23/2017 6:45AM(PT) I am also using version 1.01 and the time in the footer says the same. I tried filling in frequency and that revealed no change. Also, I just wanted to point out that I tried out making the spell-like ability into an attack, and the attack macro says that my range is 0, when it should be 45 (Close range).

yes unfortunately, since the + cl misc and + spell lvl misc are roll-time macros, i cannot calculate the range ( well i can, if it happens to evaluate to an exact number, but ) so instead I put the range in the weapon notes.&nbsp; (actually looks like a bug, that is where it should have gone, i'll work on that) I could change those two fields to be realtime "#/Equation" fields, like the buffs, where you cannot use queries. then it would be guaranteed to parse to a number, and I could set the range.&nbsp; I guess I'll do that instead. it is probably less confusing. we are having a discussion on how best to clear up this confusion on the macro types here: <a href="https://trello.com/c/oNbYxxtT" rel="nofollow">https://trello.com/c/oNbYxxtT</a> Because i was going to have those "roll time" queries where you add to any d20 etc, available in other places on the sheet besides attacks, if the user checks "show advanced rolltime macros" on config.

Can you go to the config and uncheck "Ability macros V1" &nbsp;then press Recalc? that might fix your macros. yeah cause it looks like it is stuck in the pf_block version i put out, that we fixed today, but it requires re-migrating the macros. I didn't do that since in prod they will not be going from 1.0 to another 1.0 version. though you can double check it works by re-importing your &nbsp;.v73 character.

chris b. said: Can you go to the config and uncheck "Ability macros V1" &nbsp;then press Recalc? that might fix your macros. yeah cause it looks like it is stuck in the pf_block version i put out, that we fixed today, but it requires re-migrating the macros. I didn't do that since in prod they will not be going from 1.0 to another 1.0 version. though you can double check it works by re-importing your &nbsp;.v73 character. Okay, so I did as you said and unchecked "Ability macros V1", and now using the Pink 'Spell-Like Abilities' button does the following, which is as you can tell MUCH cleaner than before.

k, the header still has 3 } at the end instead of 4, it must not be migrating it properly argh

It seems that some of the SLA's get migrated while other's do not. ;-(

it's the over and over updates , from 1.0, to other tiny 1.0 updates. the migratefunction is meant for .73 / .74 to 1.0, so these beta sheets act screwey. like the ^{spell-like-abilities would never happen if we went from the old to new. since that was due to one of the 1.0 iterations. edit: well ok ispoke to soon, that same error is present on the other ability lists.NOW is it fixed .... on my machine ...

I don't know if your aware of it but on the all attacks macro for the current sheet I noticed that the label for base attacks is at the bottom of the form that comes up in the chat window. I figured I would let you know so that you can get it in the right position on one of your next sheet updates. On a side note I think the sheet needs a macro for all saves. And it could also benifit from Psionic Power lists for those games that run Psionics.

Thanks Arcana. &nbsp;Base attacks label is fixed in beta.&nbsp; Also, Psionics are available on v73 and beta. &nbsp;Use the Config page to enable/show the section. &nbsp;It's on the Core page in v73 and the Abilities page in beta.

I think Arcana you mean you want a list for the powers themselves? we'd need help, well Magik I think knows it some, maybe he can help. From a cursory glance at the SRD, they look pretty similar to spells, is there anything that stops you from using the spells list? or a particular change that is needed so the spells list can be used? (I don't mean name changes, we can do that, but fields added or calculations changed or something) Vancian (bwa ha ha I guess we should call this Normal :) ) vancian could be prepared, spontaneous, or hybrid, and with or without points &nbsp;like the Arcanist. Psionic &nbsp;(has points) (3pp) Spheres of Power &nbsp; (3pp)&nbsp; Whatever occult types with spell points&nbsp; Does Horror have new stuff? Words of power ? (god no please) I have Occult, don't have Horror, but i haven't really read them. then those can flip fields on and off per spell, if there is only on spellcasting class it's easy. obviously this could not be for the next release, we'd have to wait

Okay, so I tried out the Spell-Like Abilities on Derwyrdd Briarheart again this morning, and this time for whatever reason the character sheet is not calculating the CL or Spell Level of his abilities. They were calculating fine just the other day. If you would like screenshots, let me know. Edit: As for listing out the different magic systems, Spheres of Power likes to have their magic sorted out by sphere (aka School of Magic, such as Conjuration or Divination) instead of spell level. Also other (3pp) "magic systems" might include Path of War (possibly sorted by type: Counter, Strike, Stance, Other) and Akashic Mysteries (sorted by slots).

Simon said: Okay, so I tried out the Spell-Like Abilities on Derwyrdd Briarheart again this morning, and this time for whatever reason the character sheet is not calculating the CL or Spell Level of his abilities. They were calculating fine just the other day. If you would like screenshots, let me know. Apparently this is because the autocalc system can find extra attributes added by users, but sheetworkers cannot see them. That is very interesting. I changed it to sheetworkers so the # could be evaluated and therefore the range calculated. I think this can be solved by us adding a notes page with generic fields for users to use for whatever they want. This has been asked for a bunch of times, and I guess it's not hard to implement just hard to make look nice (well for me :) ) This would also make it easier to "add" attributes, since with so many thousands of attributes, there is no way to find an attribute on that attributes & abilities tab. i guess we can call them user_defined_01 ... xx or something? what do you think it's actually something else.

I realized it is because the field is referencing other fields. Since it is not using autocalc (roll time) but time-of entry parsing ,the calculator only goes one "level" of references deep. I can look at adding a recursive call in there, so that once it looks up the reference, if it gets back a string that contains other references, it goes and looks those up too. That would be the best solution. I am just super busy right now.&nbsp;

Actually making SWUtils.searchAndReplaceFields recursive took only a few minutes. So it will be in beta soon. Then your macro should work.

Okay using version 1.07 ; 01/28/2017 08:33AM(PT), the macro still does not work, but I do not know why. Below is a snapshot of what the filled out Spell-Like Ability looks like. And below is the code used in the attribute: CL ((@{spellclass-0-level}) + (@{spellclass-0-level-misc}) + (floor((3*(@{spellclass-1-level}))/4)) + (@{spellclass-1-level-misc}) + (@{spellclass-2-level}) + (@{spellclass-2-level-misc}))

I would like some clarification about whats going on with the abilities tab if you could. What is going to be the recommended location for class features, feats, and racial traits? Should they be going under "Abilities" or under "Orig &lt;Relevant Section&gt;"? The way it seems to function is that everything will go under abilities and the orig sections seem to be a thing that will be migrated, but i am unsure.&nbsp;

Your assumption is correct. I did not want to force the migration due to our experience with the spell migration I may write something in the future to allow someone to one-click copy into the "abilities" list. Also I'm working on a set of tabs for the abilities to break them up into manageable views like for spells and items.

Here are the proposed tabs. please give your feedback: (they are not in beta yet) the Ex, Sp, Su tabs are not exclusionary, they may have something that appears in another tab there is only so much room Alternatively , i can maybe combine traits and racial traits (because there is not enough confusion between "race traits" and "racial traits") "Misc" is "anything else" there was not enough room for every category "special abilities" are not there, because due to the way I parse NPCs, and the fact each row can only be in one category, some special abilities are actually found under Sp or Special Attacks. So if i had a "special abilities" tab, it would not actually show all the special abilities. and I thought that was worse than just having no tab.

As a way of reducing the sheer number of tabs i have a couple ideas: Combine the feats and mythic feats tab. having a sub tabs for "feats, mythic feats, and all" would be nice but far from necessary. Instead of having a tab labeled Spec Attacks and SQ have a tab labeled Special that sub divides into abilities, attacks, and qualities. Have Ex Sp Su as sub tabs of all, as they are an alternative way to sort the same set as all. Add a tab for Spell Like Abilities. This doesn't reduce tabs but it increases usability. Traits inside of Racial Traits: This one i am unsure on, it sounds like a good idea but could result in confusion from people who are unfamiliar with the sheet. Those are my ideas, feel free to take all or none of them as you see fit. Also i presume this sections attributes be changed(npc-spell-like-abilities -&gt; abilities)? This project to improve spell like abilities has really taken a turn towards being an intensive overall lol.

oh yeah , i'd like to change the internal name, but I don't want to break every GM's sheets.. or we do the same thing, where we add "orig" to the SLA list. (Oops this is my account when I play as a player not GM. because i forgot I can do "connect as player")

Alter ego?

Correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't converting the name still allow the NPC SLA to function as is but with a different name? i am unsure how this breaks the sheets (assuming some form of migration is done to rename the existing attributes).