A Question to the Masses: Why don't you DM?

The actual fun of my RP group is that is exactly what they DO. It is my group's nature to upset the status quo and FOR THEM, that was their way of following the plot BECAUSE the queen had orchestrated a plan to kill off all of the unseemly types within the city and they destroyed the staging point for her to do that... It followed PERFECTLY with the goals of the campaign (besides killing the sick people at the location who were being hurt by the queen, and people did go against it, but the bard had some wicked disguise rolls, no one knew he was the one rousing the people to destruction and the populace rioted both to protect the place with loved ones inside AND destroy it... and then he used physics to tell me why I couldn't put out the fire as he had set it... ~_~ So yeah, they're a great group of players... and they do well DMing for each other, but for a new DM, that was their version of holding back and staying on plot.

Know the best thing about fantasy worlds? When a player tells me why Greek fire is the best siege weapon EVER I show him how horrible three really pissed off, really mean, wizards can be. Or perhaps I let him chuck it at the city, only to have heroes from INSIDE the city show up in the middle of the night and put his entire stock on fire IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CAMP. The best thing about them is that there are epic and insane people all over, so there's always an excuse to fix things. (personally though I rather liked your approach, letting them burn it down, letting them try to bring down the queen, because I am very fond of the organic sort of insanity players get up to when given free(ish) reign)

I think I'd be willing to DM but I'd have to get more experience as a player before I was confident enough on how things work to know what I am doing.

I'll go ahead and throw my hat into the ring: If you want to learn how to DM in a prep-lite fashion which affords your players meaningful choices and allows you to create a consistent, fun game for strangers of varying levels of experience, send me a PM. Included in the game will be examples of how to improvise well, how to include your players' ideas rather than blocking them, and how to facilitate the creation of  a fully-bonded, fleshed out party with highly-developed characters in the first session. System will be D&D 4e (or Dungeon World if you prefer). Eastern time zone, though I'm pretty flexible as to days and times. I would expect it to be a 3 to 4 session one-shot adventure . Roll20 for interface (of course), Google+ hangout for voice/video. In your PM, please give me a feel for your current level of experience, your Google+ email, and availability. (Some experience as a player in either system preferred.) I'll take 4 to 5 prospective DMs or current DMs who would like to see how you can create a fun game without over-preparing or writing a script or plot. Serious applicants only please.

I haven't played with or against strangers for a long time, my own D&D group is based on lifelong friends, who now thanks to the Internet can play no matter where we are in the world. And since they're stateside and I live in Canada with my family, Roll 20 is a godsend. Our DM started when he was 12 years old as a player, his brother and mother, were his compatriots against his DM father. By the time he was 14, he was a full blown DM in his own right for the many high school players and life long friends he made. I did not join his game until 6-7 years after they graduated, and my other fellow player and DM came back from the Marine Corps to DM myself and some cousins at the time. So these are the 2 main DMs I have ever played with, and they have very varying styles. Our joint DM, the fellow who started when he was 12, is very rules forward, with end game in mind. He would add music from his vast collection of soundtracks, and do the voice acting of every single NPC we met. The Marine DM was very different as a DM, since he started primarily as a player in our friend's game, his game was built on making sure his players had fun first, and even though he tried very hard to kill us, that was his secondary goal. His primary goal was story telling, since he was a rapid sci-fi and fantasy reader. I believe he'd go through 3-4 books a week when we were young and had the time. Our own DM thinks more in the bigger picture of things. His goals are to challenge us, to keep us in line, to bring about the timeline of events. We play a very strict Greyhawk world, and have done most if not all the adventures there after 20+ years. I myself, when I am asked to DM for my own DM, and because I know the other players will be joining for my 1 time event. I find that I write my scenario, based on the player and the character first and foremost. I make a list of items I know my fellow players may never get from our own DM, and I give them a better than even chance of finding 1 -2 of these things, to bring back to our steady game and add more flavor in my opinion. But let me tell you my first attempts at DMing were horrendous. I made a lot of mistakes. The biggest one, I made every single NPC a level equal to a character. I once had a city of samurai littered with 10-16th level just walking around as random encounters. I believe my players were level 12 at the time, so it was more than a challenge for them. I designed a city that looked like a maze on steroids. I populated secret rooms with Gods, since my favorite inspiration for stories were from Demi-Gods & Deities / Legends & Lore. I was so guilty of Monty Hall-ing, that I gave up on DMing for years. And then I was asked by my DM to run the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb for him. It is an obscure module written in the 90s for 2nd edition, and rewritten for 3.5 years later. But it was so well written, it felt like the most perfect starter dungeon for seasoned players I have ever read. Not as nerve wracking to run as an entire module or box set, not as demanding as having to know every aspect of the Greyhawk universe. Just your basic well plotted meat grinder, with a lot of story telling flavor and pizazz. I have since run a second one I wrote originally, and will be doing my 3rd installment for my DM in June. My point about all this is, sooner or later a player gets that urge thinking they can do what their DM does. They make mental notes of what they would do differently. As Hypnos most generously showed, there's a ton of free examples out there to help a new DM. The fears and experience that Wiliiam P. wrote out are there, but I think you have to get through them, to get to a place where YOUR style is finally developed and comfortable. It will not be a copy of the DMs you have played with, it will be a combination of what you like and don't like.  And I think that's the secret to starting. Get through the rough spots, try with 1 or 2 players you can trust at first, start low level, and don't think long term, campaign world. Think fun night, fun time for all, and get through the mistakes first. Make them, break them, and remember them for next time, because eventually you will run a game where there are no mistakes. And if done right, your players will pat you on the back with some knowing approval, and a hardy, "Damn I had a really great time playing tonight ". Yes there are many things to learn, it can get daunting, research and preparation are your friend, and maybe even getting a partner to help with your weak sides will help run your first adventure. When I forget a rule, I ask my DM as the player how to move forward, cause we agree that no rules can be added to the game, no matter who is running them, UNLESS all players regardless (if they were DMs once) agree on that new rule or ruling. So even if I am running a night, or my Marine buddy is, the rules are constant. Too many new DMs get a god complex and like to say, well in my campaign this is how it is... I have seen players run for the hills in those cases. My Marine buddy likes to give out more healing than the books allow, because he makes the enemy more off the wall as a whole. But that is his strength, we know we're in for a weird time. Where as in our own DMs game, we have so much invested in our people from his attention to detail, we have planned out children and whole family trees, everyone's coat of arms, you name it... we've mapped it out for the future. My strength is a combination of their two styles. I think of what the players needs, what will they enjoy, what will challenge them, and yes what might even kill them if they don't think as a team. And I learn as a player what to include, from what I like, from what I have been through. DMing can be exhausting but it is rewarding. It can be a thankless job, but if done well is one of the most fun. YOU GET TO DECIDE this time out, what they meet, all the backstory, what they will find treasure and rumor wise. What new trap or old one they'll have to prevail against, the possibilities are endless, but don't let that discourage you. Start small, build up, and get some momentum from both your mistakes and your successes. This Roll20 community is special, this is a love of what we have always loved, and for new players just scratching the surface, an explanation of why D&D has stood the test of time. This is a great game from both sides of the DM screen. Hypnos, I am looking forward to your final guide with joy and anticipation. Thank you for doing this, in advance.

@Terratani Your group sounds unique, I'll definitely give them that. *chuckles* There is definitely something to be said about the fun of your players surprising you. @Asaram Yeah, it does make it pretty fun! I love fantasy for a lot of reasons, but always being able to have the Bigger Fish argument is really great. There's always someone out there who could probably do some serious damage to the party, so thinking one's actions through is usually a fine idea. If you don't, you might just make the Bigger Fish mad. heh @Evan Hopefully you can find some good games to play in to get you that experience! That seems to be one of the things that holds back a lot of DMs, really. It's usually nice to have an example of how things work and roll before doing it oneself, but one needs to find a game to do it. It can be hard, definitely. @Bobby A Oh man, some of your story really takes me back and reminds me a little of my own experiences. *chuckles* And your words are wise ones. They should be read by a lot of new DMs for added advice on running games. You're quite correct, it can be very thankless, but there's nothing quite like being able to put together something for people that they really enjoy. I've always thought that a well crafted story is one of the best things in the world, because it ignites the imagination and gets people thinking about what they might want to try or write themselves. When I run games, I try, very hard, to inspire. If I can make one person say, "Hey, that was super fun, thanks!" then I feel like I've done pretty well. As well, thank you too! I will be starting to write the guide this weekend and I'm hoping it will turn out just as well as I hope. :) There's some good references in here that I will surely link and I've got a lot of considerations that will hopefully come out well! I'll be sure to keep you and the rest of this thread posted on how it's coming!

because they know they'll end up like me. i have been a DM since i was 11 yrs old. im 43 now. i have only played 4 or 5 games as a player in that entire time :) don't get me wrong, being a DM is addictive and great fun. but most folks i meet just want to play. the worst part is im actually not that great of a DM and tend to wing-it most of the time.

Carl B. said: because they know they'll end up like me. i have been a DM since i was 11 yrs old. im 43 now. i have only played 4 or 5 games as a player in that entire time :) don't get me wrong, being a DM is addictive and great fun. but most folks i meet just want to play. the worst part is im actually not that great of a DM and tend to wing-it most of the time. True, true. Some folks just want to have the fun of playing without the responsibility of DMing. I can understand it completely. The difficulty lies in trying to find games, usually. Just look at the Looking For Group board. *chuckles* The moment anyone posts a game, they tend to get flooded. On a side note though, wow! 32 years of gaming and you've only played in 4 or 5? That's impressive!

Thank you Hypnos, was happy to help... I wanted to add, don't forget to mention in your guide the different kinds of players any DM will encounter: 1) The Meta Gamer - this player is most likely a DM themselves, or has read ALL the source material. A cheating meta gamer will have read the scenario currently being played by the group, and seem to play a little too well as things progress. They are rules lawyers, and number crunchers, who break character to give themselves every statistical advantage during the game. In short a nightmare... I once had one rip the roof off my " meeting place at the inn " start up, just because he could become a dragon with a spell. Suffice to say, this player is not interested in YOUR story, or the others at the table, they only care about making themselves the center of attention. Run! 2) The Casual Roleplayer - this player is new to " acting ", they don't understand the need for jumping deep into character when it's their characters turn to speak. They break immersion by being on their phone, looking for food or drinks, getting up from the table and walking away, cause they remembered something else they had to do in their day. To them, if it's not their turn, the game seems to be on pause. When it IS their turn, they talk in 3rd person. " Well my character, (they never use their characters name or anyone's name cause they can't be bothered to remember it) talks to the bartender till he tells me what I want... should I roll dice, or will you just tell me the rumor? " They also can't be bothered to learn the game terms, the dice differences, they are phoning in their character. This player is a HUGE distraction if you have a group full of die hards. Which is why many die hard players can be reluctant to take on a new player, who not only doesn't know what they're doing, but doesn't want to learn as they are doing it. Run! 3) The Deep in Character player - this person NEVER breaks character, if they have to go to the bathroom in real life, their character in the game has to find a bush or a water-closet. They will never say "bathroom". To them the game is an escape from their generic lives, and being based in fantasy, they want the entire game to feel like a movie, with them starring in it. When asked to roll dice, they do so without any mention of the dynamics of what they need to roll, or which die to roll. They roll, and ACT out their result. Some of the best characteristics of a good storytelling DM MUST incorporate this type of acting. It's not enough to tell your players what they see, or who they meet. Acting makes the game come alive, and even the silliest of voices is better than having every NPC sound the same. Of course this is only 1 side of a good DM, the other side must know all the math, which is why if you are sharing DMing with another person. You could have each one use their strengths, with the " Law-Maker " telling you the mechanics of what you need to roll, DC difficulties, saves, etc... and the " Lore-Master " creating the world about you with visuals, sights, soundtracks AND voices. 4) The Hybrid - this player IS your average long time player, they sometimes break character, they sometimes know too many rules and statistics they shouldn't know. Like every weakness the enemy has, or every language in game, when their character does not even speak that language. With some discipline this player will keep away from their bad habits and show OTHER players how to move things along... This of course is up to the DM, it is the DM's job to know his players.  If he has a mix of friends who prefer to play a certain way, all casual for instance, then the game need not be SO serious. It can be just about having a good time for the players. Too many DMs get caught up in their OWN plans, plans sometimes that conflict with the player's own vision of THEIR character. My main was turned into a werewolf upon my request (A loup du noire to be exact) back in 1991. Eventually she was cured, twice, first of the  lycanthropy, then of achieving dragon shape changing powers... suffice to say, the latter was something I wanted, but it was taken away. Years passed. Life happened, I moved away from the area, and thus my game and friends. Then we discovered Skype... and VTT. And 11 years later, the same DM decided, I'm gonna use the same evil god you've been fighting for 12 years, and turn you back into a werewolf. The DM said, his motivation was to give me motivation... that when I was cursed before, I was more "active" with my character's alignment and intrigue. This happened in a scenario, where I thought I was safe, where I had volunteered to help finish another player's adventure as part of a rescue type situation... suffice to say we were the new back up. This was NOT my scenario, I was just in for the night. My DM decided it was the perfect scene to infect me again. I was pissed............................... for 24 hours. And then I went with it. While it was not my vision, I went with it, till eventually a few months later, I was cured. I had changed alignment. I had gained a holy weapon, with much better powers than lycanthropy ever gave me. AND I added clerical levels to my barbarian, who using 2nd edition rules required 500,000 XP to rise a level... With clerics only needing 225,000, I sky-rocketed 2-3 levels a game (over 2 months for our sessions). Now while my DM was a little heavy handed, he was expecting me to persevere and arrive at all these possibilities, he knew I had it in me. He KNEW me as a player. He moved the story to fulfill my new way of thinking, and while the catalyst was more than annoying. He KNEW that it would only annoy me temporarily, because he figured, somewhere inside me was a vault of creativity, I had not opened yet. And he was right. A new DM should strive to know their players this well. It will make any story they create, that much more involved for their players, and in fact be easier for them to run, because knowing your player that well, you don't have to think twice about what they are capable of... you believe in them as " the hero ", and as the DM, that is what you make shine in the player.

@Bobby A Oh, absolutely. I will definitely be going through the player types. *chuckles* I have a great deal of experience with a very wide array of them. I appreciate the additions though, I'll definitely make sure those are in the guide. :)

I have always been a player. Always had a group to play. Until the DM got a job. Then our weekly games became monthly. Then they became never-ly. I used to say: "Man, that's bad, I want to play but have no DM, man life's bad and all". Then I felt that divine inspiration. Got one of my books, went to work, gathered a few colleagues and said: who want's to play a game?  That was my first DMing experience. A 4e game that ended nowere (we were at work, boss found out, screaming and crying). But I LOVED to DM. After that I learnt that the important is the story, not the rules, and that the rules can be ben't. That helped me a lot, as I'm DM of a Castle Falkenstein campaign here at roll20. And I'm loving it. Why I didn't DM before? Because I was afraid of the rules. I didn't know all of them and didn't had enough time to read the book. So, I never put my ideas into use. But now that I found out that the rules are in second place, most of my fun comes from DMing.

Why did the boss whine?

Hypnos said: Carl B. said: because they know they'll end up like me. i have been a DM since i was 11 yrs old. im 43 now. i have only played 4 or 5 games as a player in that entire time :) don't get me wrong, being a DM is addictive and great fun. but most folks i meet just want to play. the worst part is im actually not that great of a DM and tend to wing-it most of the time. True, true. Some folks just want to have the fun of playing without the responsibility of DMing. I can understand it completely. The difficulty lies in trying to find games, usually. Just look at the Looking For Group board. *chuckles* The moment anyone posts a game, they tend to get flooded. On a side note though, wow! 32 years of gaming and you've only played in 4 or 5? That's impressive! or scary >.< thanks though! and i would like to add a little shout out to Roll20. as i mentioned im not the best DM so many of my games are loosely outlined and then improv'd. but with this setup here i have to plan much farther ahead and far more thoroughly, which can only help me and improve the game play experience of my players in the long run. so here's R20!

@Angela Dias It's definitely seeming like knowledge of the rules appears to be one of the biggest hurdles to DMing. One of the most mentioned reasons for a lack of want to DM, honestly. Great that you're having fun with it though. :) @Carl B Agreed! Roll20 is one of the best things that's happened to my games in ages. I've not been able to work any other game table software worth a damn, so R20 was a godsend at the time. DMs who do go ahead and run games are at a fine time to start doing so, what with the sheer number of tools at their disposal.

@Bobby A I think your "types" don't quite say everything, as I said before, I liked the DM for Dummies' types, although I admit they seem to be a bit too narrow - no one really covers one person I know that I play with and it's more these traits of one and these traits of another. I think that there are 2 types to every player, that there is the way the player interacts with the rules and the way a player interacts with roleplaying. RULES PLAYER TYPES Metagamer: These people like to roleplay, because they like rules. They are always looking to exploit every vague wording in the rulebook and they optimize the characters they create to best exploit the rules as they're written. They like to know the ins and outs of every rule in the book so they can call on it to their advantage. They can sometimes get upset by GM house rules to change the rules as written because it ruins an exploitation they wanted to play with. If they know about the stats of a monster they will use that to their advantage when planning strategy. Story Gamer: I would say I fit into this category. Story gamers, unlike metagamers, don't need to know ALL the rules, they just look at rules in pieces and try to think of the character that can be made with those rules. To a story gamer, the rules are the restrictions to a character so they want to build their character with the bits that the rules allow them to and they will often make decisions that are stupid to a Metagamer BECAUSE they have no actual advantage, or won't amount to anything other than fleshing out character goals or backstory. Story gamers like to really be a part of the world created by the GM so if it's a premade setting they will read into the area or region their character is from or where the game will take place to have an overview. They may not read too deeply because they don't want to know TOO much, but they just want to feel like part of the world. Social Gamer: This is a casual gamer that doesn't really care about the rules. They often have someone else make a character for them, or get swept up by people "helping" them make a character. They usually are just in it to hang with their friends and have a fun time. They may or may not like role-playing, they may or may not be going out with or want to go out with someone in the group. Social gamers learn the rules just enough to be able to play , and will often have to be told what the rules let them do until or unless they actually learn more about the rules. ROLEPLAYING PLAYER TYPES Rules Player: A rules player is all about the numbers and the dice. They are often more combat oriented players, or players that focus on being able to perform certain actions. They play dice-roll to dice-roll, combat to combat, They tend to be more quiet ones and get left on the wayside when a lot of roleplaying happens without any dice being rolled when they aren't able to perform their function as a character. Depending on how they deal with the rules, a Rules player might or might not care about this. If they're social, it doesn't matter, as long as they can still enjoy the company of everyone it's good. Story and metagamers will feel a little left out and may try to direct the action to turn in favor of them being able to do things - or not. Self Player: This roleplayer always plays himself, or his idealized self. Some will play as part of the fantasy world, while others will really be themselves and when presented with a problem will act as they would reasonably act. The better you know this person as a GM, the easier it is to predict him, because he'll just be and act himself and have fun with that. Most self players are very respectable and play characters of neutral or good alignments, depending on whether they're being idealized or not. A Social self-player may grate on some people's nerves because they tend to be a bit too much reality into the game and break the suspension of disbelief, unless they can actually get into the fantasy world. Spotlight Player: This player only really starts playing when their character is in the spotlight. They will usually be fairly quiet and reserved until they're really pulled in as part of the group or the world and then they'll start to shine. These player types take a little bit of work and will often settle into another roleplay type until they're spotlighted, but may also steal the show when they get the spotlight, and may wilt and droop if they lose it again, so you have to be careful with this type. The worst type of spotlight player will not play unless they are in the spotlight and they are very outgoing and will try to keep the spotlight on focused on just one person, himself. The typical spotlight player is a bit shy and just needs to be coaxed out of a shell and feel like they're actually involved to really get into things. Character Player: Depending on level of creativity and extroversion a character player is closely related to a self player, except that they have a few different types of characters they play. Character players make a story and a concept for their character and play to be true to that - and depending on the person the player is, that can be a very single-minded path to destruction at times. Some character players maintain their idealized self as a part of the characters they play, while others will go with whatever story they think of and play it to it's conclusion. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There might be more types or better describing words but this is some of what I'm used to.

@Terratani Agreed. I was writing stream of consciousness...  I enjoyed your additions, especially the Self Player, I have definitely encountered those, with metagamer tendencies. Who cheat profusely when the DMs back is turned, and ask their fellow players to keep their secret abuses. They seem to think the dynamic of Us vs the DM is above maintaining any sense of honor. I've also encountered the Spotlight Player, who I prefer to call the Glory Hound or Grandstander. They ALWAYS rush the leader, especially in a crowded room. They want the rest of the group to fight the lower levels and lieutenants, and they want all the credit, XP and loot for defeating the main villain. We've only scratched the surface of Player Etiquette... but as you say, we cannot be just 1 description or expect others to follow our own self imposed code. The players I have disagreed with over time at my own table, were ones that I thought, thought like me. Upheld my sensibilities. Which was foolish to believe, some do... this game CAN bring about a sense of camaraderie in total strangers who value the ultimate good. Then you have character/player alignments that never change. Which leads me to a new description: The Alignment Player - a chaotic neutral player than plays ALL his characters in the same way. OR a lawful good player who will never bend the rules, even in his favor... When our DM first started, he MADE all the Lawful characters in game, POLICE the other players. Clerics and paladins especially. He allowed Chaotic Neutral types to run rampant behind their back, but once caught in the open with their actions, those CN players suffered through his disciplinary actions forced upon the LG players to live up to their alignment.  Over the years, my DM has since changed his ways. He wanted his lawful players to come back to his table, and so he lifted the POLICE STATE, and allowed all alignments to work towards the greater good. As long as openly they did not commit crimes in front of one another. Or if they did, they had a justification for their vigilante-ism... It has made a great difference to the player that felt they were being forced to do the DMs dirty work.  And while a mixing of the alignments is another discussion. My point with all this is a new DM should be on the look out for this loose hair... if you pull on it too much, it could unravel your entire group. If you let it go just enough, it should be something you are aware of, but not necessarily trying to control... My DM still does some policing, but it is to the individual player in emails, not during the gaming session. We gather together FOR the game, not the debate OF the game. It has taken my DM a LONG time to learn that lesson...

@ Bobby A Actually with my description of Spotlight player, I was kinda nodding in the direction of your story, about the lycanthropy and the GM putting you on the spot and you rising to the challenge. I also think I'm a bit of a sportlight player as I find it hard to get into a story without being wrapped up in it. I wasn't saying that all Spotlight players were LEROY JENKINS, but more that they have a main character syndrome that unless it feels like they're a main character and they have involvement and vested interest they are fairly apathetic players a lot of the time. At least in my case. And my characters aren't always the rush in type, in fact my spotlight is generally outside of combat. I build characters that have character flaws for the express purpose that they need to overcome something and develop, but I can only REALLY implement it when I collude with the GM because their flaws are inherent in their backstories which is inherent in the campaign setting... If I don't have the opportunity to make a character that has a detailed background at the get-go, my characters are usually pretty bland and support-character-ish.They stay out of the sportlight and I tend not to have as much fun... And if a GM takes the spotlight away and actually admonishes me for hogging it, it kinda puts a damper on the whole RP experience for the campaign for me. It's like.... there I am really having fun and then I get told, no stop having fun, your fun is taking away from everyone else, but really, the reason I'm having fun and stay in the spotlight is because the GM is allowing it and is not focusing on anyone else so I don't feel like I should be to blame for having made an interesting character that has a lot of roleplay possibilities when other people didn't put in the effort to work something out with the GM. If you can tell I'm a bit bitter about that having happened in a campaign I was in... I ended up with a character I put a lot into her backstory and she had ties to almos all of the other PCs. She was an exiled princess, on her own, and to beat the weakness that forced her to run away, she threw away everything feminine and some of the characters were from her present, others her past and she had a lot of character development to do to come to terms with the part of herself she denied... Then a player complained to the GM, the GM practically outlawed all of the PC on PC interaction, then a little while later the guy that complained left anyway, and the interactions were never the same afterwards...

Hypnos, your thread exploded.

Because a good DM needs to be eloquent, fast thinking and well spoken.  Maybe I can come up with things on the fly, but tripping over my own tongue makes getting the point across much harder.  A really good DM has real charisma; knowledge of the rules can be had by anyone with some study time, but charisma doesn't come from a book.  Either you got it, or you don't.  I know 4E, I have lots of ideas, but I lack that commanding presence and eloquence a good DM needs.  Of course, your version of good may vary, but the best I've ever seen could've been an actor.  He was so good at giving description with flair and style you couldn't help but be interested in whatever he said.  That's a good DM to me.

@Terratani Yikes. Hell of a story. It's fairly difficult sometimes and a lot of DMs honestly make some pretty lousy decisions in that sense. Personally, I like characters that try and be in the spotlight because it's actually not too hard to let one character be outgoing and what not while still engaging the others, but I admit that it might not be that easy for others. Your character sounds like you made her pretty fun and extensive and I definitely know how that goes and how irritating it is to basically be told to just be a Wallflower so I don't alienate the other players. I think this is a lot to do with experience as well. The better you get, the easier it is to handle those sorts of things. A shame your DM wasn't really able to handle it so well... Heh, have to say, you and Bobby are offering some great thoughts on character types as well. Keep it up, I love reading it! @William P Aye! It really did. *chuckles* I'd say I'm going to have a lot of information for my guide. I'm loving all of the posts, feedback, tips, tricks and general info being offered and tossed about. @Jools S I agree a little, but it depends a lot on the type of campaign too. If you're just playing text, then charisma doesn't matter that much. A well written background and text for your players can do wonders for engrossing the players. Even if you are playing with video and voice, charisma can be nice, but a good story can come out of anyone. So while I do agree that charisma CAN add to the experience (it can't hurt, by any means), it's definitely not the only thing by far and I'd say no one should let a personal feeling like they lack charisma stop them from DMing. I'm not a charismatic guy, but I've been DMing for 17 years and I've never had a complaint about the stories I weave.

Has anyone discussed a white list before? The idea is that DMs encourage others to be a DM more by setting up a system where preference is given to join their campaign to people who run their own campaigns. People known to DM a lot get bumped to the front of the line, so to speak. It has the downside of discouraging new players, which is clearly a bad thing, but if it were managed in a way that people doing it make 25% of their campaigns "white list campaigns", then it should work well enough for both sides.

I find that sometimes I try to plan TOO much when I'm trying to prep for a game as a DM. &nbsp;I've found that the most satisfying games I've run have been the ones where the story grows and develops details as the players interact. &nbsp;Of course, it helps to have players that are on the same page. &nbsp;That being said, the off the cuff games are a little more difficult to prepare for on a VTT... or they can be much, much easier. &nbsp;Instead of spending hours creating and uploading maps, tokens, dynamic lighting "walls", etc., you can use the program to be the scratch sheet of paper and a quickly drawn sketch of a map to indicate relative positions, etc. &nbsp;If the groups is more prone to dungeon crawls, then, by all means, prep away! &nbsp;I really enjoy that part, too! If you haven't read this article by Justin Achilli, do yourself a favor and print it out and distribute it to your players. &nbsp;It's geared more around the White Wolf/Vampire genre, but can be universally applied. &nbsp;THE most enjoyable games I've played are the ones where parts of the story meant something special to the character. <a href="http://justinachilli.com/2012/05/08/the-three-sentence-character/" rel="nofollow">http://justinachilli.com/2012/05/08/the-three-sentence-character/</a> Tell your players not to spend too much time coming up with the three sentences - they are likely to change as the character evolves, anyways.

@ Blaeringr It's a nice idea in concept, but I doubt that we could actually get the community to be that co-ordinated. We could do that with a mini-community with the focus of training GMs, but not for the entirety of Roll20

It doesn't take the whole community. I can do it myself without any coordination. I just need to put in the campaign description for some of my campaigns that I'll be showing preference to GMs who are looking for a game to play. Then I click on the name of an applicant and see if they're currently hosting any campaigns. It only takes one person doing it to get a few people re-considering whether they'd be willing to GM. As time goes on, I make a list of people I see hosting campaigns. I will give a name to that list. That name shall be "white list". If another GM sees me mention it, he/she can ask me to share that white list. If they don't ask, no matter, I'll just keep doing what I do. Done. No need to make it any more convoluted than that.

Blaeringr, good idea. &nbsp;BTW, I'm a GM looking to play 4E &lt;grin&gt;

I actually want to DM, but I have not played much at all (last time I played table top, 3rd Edition was the newest release... yeah...) I have watched videos of Roll20 and such on youtube with 4th edition and have some books so I am familiarizing myself with it, but it's really nice to play once before jumping in the DM seat... even though I have a couple of campaign stories in mind.

I really don't get why people aren't more passionate about DMing. It's fun. Sure, it's hard to come up with a campaign, but all you need to do is run a pre-made campaign. If you don't know a rule, look at an online resource like pfsrd or check your book. If you fuck up, claim DM powers and keep going. It's harder dealing with unruly players than it is running a pre-made campaign. I wanted to play DnD 2 weeks ago, so I got a few of my friends and threw together a pre-made adventure path from Pathfinder and am on my 2nd successful session. Never DM'd before in my life. You just gotta do it. I am running a campaign and looking for an active pathfinder game to join, but few people want to DM and no one is willing to do it when I am available. It's a serious shame. You can learn to DM without even playing a character.

Very true Jesse, premades are a great tool for new GMs. even if you don't run it you can draw a lot of ideas from them. The unruly players is the bigger problem for a new GM.

It's easy to cover up when you make a mistake too.&nbsp; If you give a monster some ability it shouldn't have, or use a name your players know from a module as wrong, just agree with them.&nbsp; Smile and nod, mention how odd it is, and keep going.&nbsp; It'll throw them off;&nbsp; they think you've changed something when you made a mistake.&nbsp; Now its just a matter of adding/taking away something to make that screw up fit into the story.

@Terratini The way I see it there are two major approaches to gamers who apply real-world knowledge to the game, and one of them is definitely better for starting GMs. 1) "Roll it" A lot of the time my players will ask if they can do something ridiculous (grab a zombie and smash it into another zombie while swinging it to the giant iron pillar in the room. Yes, that happened.) and my response is almost always "roll it". If a player wants to dismount the captain of the cavalry assaulting them while simultaneously getting on the horse, I tell them to roll. Improvise a cannon? Roll. Coordinate people into a modern-day combat formation? Roll amongst the characters to see if they mess up. Seduce the bar maid? Okay, that one requires roleplay, but you get my point here. 2) NO On the other hand, sometimes you just have to say no. You are the divine arbiter, the god of gods (quite literally, since you control those characters). If you decide that something is not feasible within the education or physical ability of the player, do not be afraid to say so. Cherry picking some examples from 1, you could say that the player swinging the zombie isn't used to using flesh-eating corpses as weapons, making it impossible for them to perform such an elaborate maneuver. No, the player cannot improvise a cannon. He's not familiar with how much powder to use, what materials to craft the cannon out of, or even the physics required for aiming such a device. No, the party cannot use a modern-day tactical formation, these evolved over centuries of combat and unless the character has an extremely high intelligence score, there's no reason to believe they can jump ahead that far. It's best if you start with this rule at the beginning of the adventure and stick to it throughout to avoid any suspicion of favoritism, though, so be careful. My suggestion to starting GMs would be to start with the second approach. As players get a bit more cooperative (or when they come up with truly creative ideas that can enhance the drama and move the narrative in a fun and interesting direction) you can loosen this rule, and move more toward approach 1. In the end, the players should be less likely to troll and they will work harder to make creative solutions to their problems within the limits of their characters.

I do, its just so much resposibility that sometimes I don't want to.

Hypnos, Thank you for starting this thread. I've been DMing for longer than care to admit and always enjoy learning from fellow DMs.&nbsp; My advice to players that are considering giving DMing a try is to just go for it. Like many said already, start small and just focus on one session. Once your players show up and you're about to kick things off (probably nervous as hell), just keep this in mind. Have fun.&nbsp; Trust me, your mood will set the tone. Fun is the only measuring stick I ever use for my gaming sessions. When the players are chit chatting, post game, and laughing amongst each other about the crazy stuff that went down in your adventures, it's an amazing feeling. &nbsp;It only comes from DMing.&nbsp; Every DM who's posted here has felt the high of a great adventure and that's what drives us. So stop thinking about DMing and just go for it.

Woo, was gone for the weekend and the thread continues to grow rapidly! I couldn't be happier! heh @Blaeringr Could be a good idea, though such a thing would definitely need to be sure not to alienate other people. White lists can be good, but they can create divisions as well. All the same, could be good! @Timm O That's a pretty interesting method. I'd never heard of the 'three sentence' method before, but seems like it could really get some people thinking on their characters. I'd definitely think something like that would be good for a DM to get their players rolling on things. Also, I personally don't believe there's such a thing as too much planning. *chuckles* But everyone has their own methods. @Wesley B The guide I'm intending to get all written out will be aimed for folks like yourself. I intend to try and lay down DMing for even those who haven't been able to get much playing in, as it's pretty difficult to find a game that you simply get to be a player in lately. Hopefully you'll be able to get into the DMing though, as it's surprisingly fun when you get rolling on it! @Jesse S I tend to think the same way, really. The sheer number of resources available for DMs out there these days is staggering. Roll20 became an incredible boon for my games when it started off, but you have pages out there that do almost everything. If you want a pre-made adventure, just look to some of the links I posted earlier in the thread. There are NPC generators, map generators and dozens of other resources, not including things like the SRDs that allow you to look up anything you need. It's a rather amazingly easy, technically speaking, time to be a DM. One just needs to say, "I want to run a game," and then see what's out there. But maybe that's a key...showing off the resources available. I might just have to try and do that.

@Dylan G Good advice! It's always best for a DM to have their own methods of dealing with things when it comes to their characters. Sometimes saying 'no' to a particularly crazy/off the wall idea is the best idea for a DM who is new to doing so. @Xavier C Understandable. Sometimes it does feel like there's pressure and not everyone really wants to deal with that. It's the same reason a lot of DMs want to occasionally just play instead of having to worry about running the game yourself. @Nizuul Hey, it's my pleasure! Helping get the ball rolling and getting advice out there for newer DMs is kind of a target for me. The community gets stronger and more vibrant the more DMs and new ideas there are out there. Good advice though! I'd generally say the same thing of newer DMs. If you really want to get something going, grab a pre-made adventure, see about some players and give it a whack. Not everything turns out perfectly, obviously, but one needs to walk before they can run. I always see it as a matter of taking that first creative leap to surpass just playing and getting into running things. *chuckles* But as I stated in my previous post, I think maybe the ease with which one can actually DM is a little obfuscated by the idea of both culpability and a lack of ease of access. People are pretty much terrified of something going wrong or not knowing all the rules all the time and thus they hesitate. All in all, I think everything just needs to be laid out in full. If so? Then, just maybe, people will gain the confidence to take that first leap.

I would actually say that right now is probably a less enticing time to be a DM than ever before.&nbsp; Yes, there is a wide variety of games out there, something to suit every style...&nbsp; but changes in player attitude, a general sense of entitlement and defensiveness in the role-playing community in general toward what we used to readily recognize as "problem player behavior" have driven quite a few of the best GMs away from the table. If I might paraphrase the inimitable Randal Graves here; "DMing would be breat if not for the players."

What is this "general sense of entitlement" you speak of? Also, what did "we used to readily recognize as 'problem player behavior'" again?

WildKnight said: I would actually say that right now is probably a less enticing time to be a DM than ever before.&nbsp; Yes, there is a wide variety of games out there, something to suit every style...&nbsp; but changes in player attitude, a general sense of entitlement and defensiveness in the role-playing community in general toward what we used to readily recognize as "problem player behavior" have driven quite a few of the best GMs away from the table. If I might paraphrase the inimitable Randal Graves here; "DMing would be breat if not for the players." That's actually not very much of a problem in the current climate for one very good reason: it is a DM's market, so to speak, If a player causes problems? You kick them out and there are a dozen people behind them chomping at the bit to get into a game. A DM can want to play some bizarre variation on some ancient setting and there will be ten players who come posting because they want to give it a try, just because it's an open game. Sure, problem players are annoying, but if a DM is letting themselves be chased away by someone being an idiot...well, welcome to the internet, really. You simply have to expect that there are people who are going to cause trouble here, because that's what anonymity does. It's not a nice thing and it's very annoying, but you deal with it. Trolling and problem behaviour has existed as long as the internet has. The DM just has to stand up, kick the problem out and find a new person. It's just that easy.

A lot of players feel entitled (and are often encouraged in their thinking by the GMing sections of many newer RPGs) to "game the system" and build characters that abuse system failings, or otherwise generally be disruptive to the game experience.&nbsp; I don't think you have to really go a long way to see what I'm talking about; check out the GMing advice section of an older RPG, vs. the similar section of a newer RPG (especially if it's a WotC/Hasbro product).&nbsp; Munchkins, drama queens, and glory hogs used to be strongly discouraged...&nbsp; now the GM is instead instructed to simply give these people what they want, and if the game doesn't work, it's considered a failure of the GM.&nbsp; The "cooperative" element of cooperative story-telling games has largely been replaced with forcing the GM to play preschool teacher for one or two self-absorbed players while the rest of the table tolerates (to varying degrees) the trouble behavior.&nbsp; In a lot of cases, the systems themselves have removed all room for GM creativity, replacing it with a "rule for everything" mentality that was supposed to reduce the sense of competitiveness between the GM and the players, but instead is largely a tool for player abuse, and reduces the GM's role to that of a referee, which used to be just one of the many hats a proper GM wore. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that where once players would typically vocally oppose the problem players within their own group, now the tendency is to either outright support them, or expect the GM to handle it without involving them, which leads problem players to believe too often that they are not, in fact, a problem.

Hypnos said: WildKnight said: I would actually say that right now is probably a less enticing time to be a DM than ever before.&nbsp; Yes, there is a wide variety of games out there, something to suit every style...&nbsp; but changes in player attitude, a general sense of entitlement and defensiveness in the role-playing community in general toward what we used to readily recognize as "problem player behavior" have driven quite a few of the best GMs away from the table. If I might paraphrase the inimitable Randal Graves here; "DMing would be breat if not for the players." That's actually not very much of a problem in the current climate for one very good reason: it is a DM's market, so to speak, If a player causes problems? You kick them out and there are a dozen people behind them chomping at the bit to get into a game. A DM can want to play some bizarre variation on some ancient setting and there will be ten players who come posting because they want to give it a try, just because it's an open game. Sure, problem players are annoying, but if a DM is letting themselves be chased away by someone being an idiot...well, welcome to the internet, really. You simply have to expect that there are people who are going to cause trouble here, because that's what anonymity does. It's not a nice thing and it's very annoying, but you deal with it. Trolling and problem behaviour has existed as long as the internet has. The DM just has to stand up, kick the problem out and find a new person. It's just that easy. Online it's a GM's market.&nbsp; Out there in the real world, finding 5 players for just about anything is virtually impossible.&nbsp; A lot of the great GMs that taught me how to play don't run games online, for the simple fact that they've come to rely on face-to-face interaction as part of their game. I'm also not sure it's as easy to get rid of problem players as you seem to be suggesting.&nbsp; For one, you can't be guaranteed to replace them with anything better (as I've said, I truly believe that problem players have become a large enough minority that combined with those who openly support their behavior while not necessarily participating themselves, makes them nearly ubiquitous).&nbsp; Additionally, removing a player is often very disruptive to a group, and you can't always detect the problems in the first few sessions.

@ WildKnight I think my point remains the same. The present day allows for DMs to have their pick of the litter when it comes to players. If someone starts acting in a way that the DM doesn't like, replacement of them is actually quite easy. There is no shortage of people and, frankly, I haven't had any issues in any of my games for quite some time. There's always going to be a problem player somewhere and at some point, but that is by no means the majority of people. You set the tone for your own players. That's all there is to it. As well, by saying 'a lot', you're pigeon holing an awful lot of players and that isn't overly fair. From what I've seen, there is no 'a lot' when it comes to players who outright flaunt the rules. The DM sets out what they expect of the players before the game even starts and the players stick to that. If they don't, they tend to be removed, a new player moves in and all is well. The DM still gets to be as creative as they want, the rules follow that along and that is that. It should also be noted, this is a thread for asking why people don't DM. If you're trying to make some statement or generally rant about how the companies or what not have failed in their writing or how much you just generally seem to dislike any and all players at this point, then I would recommend making your own thread about that. You should probably take that elsewhere.

I was responding to the question "why don't you DM?"&nbsp; My response was the answer to that question, not only my own, but for a number of people I know who either used to run games and don't anymore, or who want to start running games but have shown reluctance to do so when I (or others in my network) talk to them about it. I don't think it's wise to say "let's talk about a problem" and then refuse to acknowledge someone's perception of what might be contributing to that problem, but c'est la vie. (For the record though, I don't hate "all" players, by any stretch.&nbsp; I don't hate ANY players.&nbsp; I'm running two solid groups on roll20, one more table top, and I'm a player in one table top and one roll20 game.&nbsp; I do think that there is a dangerously visible/vocal minority that can be problematic.)

Anyways! Back into 'positive' territory again, I'll pose another quick question: I think one of the things I'm going to do in my guide is put in a rather sizeable collection of all of the resources that I can gather to help new and less experienced DMs. Character/NPC creators, map making, all that good stuff. Does anyone have any good resources that they might want to add to such a listing? Anything at all that could assist new DMs with the process would be most helpful.

Names can sometimes be a problem, and one site that I love is&nbsp; <a href="http://www.behindthename.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.behindthename.com/</a> If you just need a name quick it even has a random renamer and you can even specify the language of origin for the random names so that you can keep thematic.

Well, there seem to be more players these days with "problem attitudes" (like a few days ago, when I was told I was 'wrong' to remove a feat that I felt unbalanced the game monstrously). The upside however is that it took me less than ten minutes to replace this player once he started cursing at me. Most of the time I am relaxed, once you start calling me names because I don't run the game the way you want I will go find someone else who's willing to play in my game under my rules and wish you well on your hunt for a GM that meets your approval :) So, in summary, while it might be more common to run into "problem players" these days (from what I've experienced anyways) it's less of an issue to run into one than it used to be, since if you find one it is far easier to replace them with one of the many wonderful players that make up the majority of the pool.

@Terratani Nice! I actually have found a few DMs I've helped out with did have a lot of difficulty with naming, so that seems like it might be pretty helpful. Any other good resources for DMs?

For more resources, this one is wonderful for generating random things of all sorts:&nbsp; <a href="http://chaoticshiny.com/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://chaoticshiny.com/index.php</a> Some of those are wonderful for adding little bits of flavor to your stories or even sparking ideas for entire story lines. And this one has a bunch of useful tools as well, including random dungeons, encounters, inns, and a bunch more for a few different systems:&nbsp; <a href="http://donjon.bin.sh/" rel="nofollow">http://donjon.bin.sh/</a>

Sarah A. said: For more resources, this one is wonderful for generating random things of all sorts:&nbsp; <a href="http://chaoticshiny.com/index.php" rel="nofollow">http://chaoticshiny.com/index.php</a> Some of those are wonderful for adding little bits of flavor to your stories or even sparking ideas for entire story lines. And this one has a bunch of useful tools as well, including random dungeons, encounters, inns, and a bunch more for a few different systems:&nbsp; <a href="http://donjon.bin.sh/" rel="nofollow">http://donjon.bin.sh/</a> Holy crap, that is an awful lot of generators. *chuckles* Awesome though. Those are pretty great! :) Very nice and those are definitely going to be helpful, I'm sure.

I'm firmly of the opinion that new GMs (heck ALL GMs) can use a bit of random generation to help them out. &nbsp;It's perfect for those times your players suddenly decide they unexpectedly want to visit the tavern and talk to everyone there. :)

Sarah A. said: I'm firmly of the opinion that new GMs (heck ALL GMs) can use a bit of random generation to help them out. &nbsp;It's perfect for those times your players suddenly decide they unexpectedly want to visit the tavern and talk to everyone there. :) Hah, I definitely know that feeling and I couldn't agree more. :) Sometimes you don't want to have to think of every person in there and just want a bit of randomness.

I recommend starting small (read most posts, started skimming, may have missed this if it's already been said) and keep the options limited until you get a handle on things. I used to run a convention game called Jailbreak.&nbsp; Here's the idea. &nbsp; The party wakes up in a jail cell in a dungeon.&nbsp; One of the other inhabitants (the troll in the neighboring cell frex) killed the only guard.&nbsp; Now it's up to you to break out, scavenge a bit of gear and find your way to the surface. The motivation is simple, the encounters can be random-ish, and the environment is limited.&nbsp; They could just plop down in the kitchen and decide not to look for the exit, but then other critters get loose and come looking.&nbsp; So like old-school dungonfests, if the party doesn't move down the hallway, something else will.&nbsp; Once you get a feel, you can expand on this one by giving them something to do once they escape or start a new game with the same players. You just have to explain the situation up front.&nbsp; "I'm a new GM, so this is a very limited game to help me learn to use the tools of the trade.&nbsp; The dungeon floor/ceiling/walls are unbreakable, there's only one way out, and you'll starve or be eaten in your sleep if you don't work toward escaping"