Mad Mage Dynamic Lighting Walls are Atrocious

I'm pretty disappointed after my purchase of Dungeon of the Mad Mage for one single reason. The walls on the dynamic lighting layer are so far off the walls on the map that it's truly ridiculous . The problem is that in a dungeon with plenty of hidden doors, it makes it fairly obvious where these doors are. As an example:   This is not even close  to a one-off, literally more than 95% of the map is like this, and the times the map walls and lighting layer walls actually align seems more like an accident. So in order to make this module playable for my players, I'm having to go through every one of the 23 floors of the module to redraw the lighting layer. For a product that costs $50 to still require an additional 50 hours of non-creative, rote work just to make it playable is really unacceptable in my opinion. I'm fine, I'll do it because I want to run this module, but this level of shoddy work is really surprising to me. It feels like the person creating these lighting layers doesn't even play on a VTT, I don't understand how they could think this would function in-game. To be clear, I've purchased several other modules on Roll20, and this is the first time I've seen an issue like this, at least to this level of terrible. And I get that there was probably some kind of deadline that had to be met, and there are alot  of maps to create lighting layers for . But the solution of shifting that work onto the people paying for this work to be done is not the solution . 

You should be masochist to play hours on those terribles maps.

Aren't those hidden door markers placed on the GM Info Overlay? If they are, they're invisible to your players.

I believe Ishik means that the DL walls are so far inset, that it is obvious where a secret door is by virtue of the door line being closer to the visible wall edge. I.e. "I can see two feet deep into every wall but this one; there must be a secret door here."

John M. said: Aren't those hidden door markers placed on the GM Info Overlay? If they are, they're invisible to your players. Correct. I am a Player in this module (6 players + 1 DM), and the view is great.  We do not see the secret doors ahead of time. From Player viewpoint, the dynamic walls seem well done in this. However we are still on the early upper levels and haven't gotten deep enough to analyze the entire module yet.

keithcurtis said: I believe Ishik means that the DL walls are so far inset, that it is obvious where a secret door is by virtue of the door line being closer to the visible wall edge. I.e. "I can see two feet deep into every wall but this one; there must be a secret door here." This is exactly what I mean. It's not about the 'S', I know the players can't see that. And it already came up on the first floor, with the players knowing exactly where to make Perception checks to search for a hidden door because of this reason.

Since this is about licensed content, the devs have requested that all such bugs get reported through a  Help Center Request . This will route the bug to the person most likely to understand and fix it. I would send you screen shot and an explanation of exactly the issue, clarifying the problem regarding secret door placement.

I agree that the line of sight stuff does not work so well in either of the Waterdeep modules. However, I don't think it's caused by crappy Roll20 DL lines. The reality is, the Dyson style maps just are not suited for the way visuals play out on Roll20, and there's just not a good way to do the DL walls and provide something interesting to see on these maps. In your example, you might say the solution is to simply move the orange line up a couple pixels so the wall looks uniform. But that doesn't work, because then the players see the side walls of the secret room. Instead, you have to move the DL walls closer to the edge of the map lines, revealing less of the drawings -- now players see nothing more than black lines for walls, with no definition or depth (or interest). These Dyson maps just didn't transition well into Roll20. It's a bummer.  

you could move the dl secret wall back a bit and add an image overlay, that hides the wall parts, but now the GM has to remove 2 parts. Also if you are not okay with it, but your players are, you should talk to your players about using meta knowledge, as both of you seemingly have different opinions about that. Chances are you will have that problem not only with those Walls and will have to address that sooner or later. You could also ask them everytime how they know to look at that exact spot, to signal them about using meta knowledge.

As GM, I usually enjoy my players finding all the hidden doors. Having them unsuccessfully search every room would be a drag for all involved. If it bothers you, you could also fool and discourage them by making a few fake ones.

These are all great work-arounds if this was FREE CONTENT.  But I would be just as unhappy if I had purchased it. When physical toys are not put together a warning comes on the box that says "Some Assembly Required".  Had there been a warning on this content pack that said "Dynamic Lighting was done by a blind orangutang, you will have to redo it entirely.", I don't think the OP would have PAID for the content.

So instead of offering possible solutions for this problem we should just agree and stomp our feet in anger? Would that help? All right; Hey guys, it IS atrocious! *stomp stomp*

John M. said: So instead of offering possible solutions for this problem we should just agree and stomp our feet in anger? Would that help? All right; Hey guys, it IS atrocious! *stomp stomp* I think the most helpful point John makes here is that the problem Ishik points out is not really a "defect" in Roll20's porting of the content (so it's a difficult problem for Roll20 to solve). The Wizards of the Coast maps are not designed with any consideration for Roll20 gameplay or specifications, and this sometimes leads to Roll20 ports that aren't as good as they should be. It would be fantastic if there was a way to change that.

TickleMeOzmo said: These are all great work-arounds if this was FREE CONTENT.  But I would be just as unhappy if I had purchased it. When physical toys are not put together a warning comes on the box that says "Some Assembly Required".  Had there been a warning on this content pack that said "Dynamic Lighting was done by a blind orangutang, you will have to redo it entirely.", I don't think the OP would have PAID for the content. That's just not entirely true. Would the Author have done the dl walls close to the walls he would have gotten complaints that they loose any depth for the players. Would he have done the secret walls farther away he would have gotten complaints that there are remnants of the walls of the secret rooms visible (which imo would have been even more obvious), Would he have done my suggestion of an overlay, he would have gotten complaints from GMs who didn't realize there were overlays who complain that the walls to secret rooms look funny. Sometimes there is no perfect solution.

Ok, you guys are really starting to get off the rails here. I would guess from some of these suggestions that you don't seem to understand the issue, or its scope. I would ask you return to the original post and examine what the issue is before continuing to offer solutions that won't work. I would also strongly disagree with the idea that this wasn't an error on the part of the Roll20 content import staff. Plenty of other imported maps in other modules haven't had this issue, and as somehow who creates DL layers for homebrew maps all the time, and is currently redoing the DL layer for many of the maps in this very module, I know for a fact that the nature of the Dyson maps in this module have no bearing on this issue. As for why I posted this in the first place, it wasn't even to seek solutions. I know the solution, it's to go through and fix the DL layers by hand. The reason for my posting was to warn other people that would care about an issue like this, so they would be properly equipped with the info they would need to make an informed decision about purchasing the module. You can all chill out now.

keithcurtis said: Since this is about licensed content, the devs have requested that all such bugs get reported through a  Help Center Request . This will route the bug to the person most likely to understand and fix it. I would send you screen shot and an explanation of exactly the issue, clarifying the problem regarding secret door placement. I am not sure I would necessarily qualify this as a bug, and I would be genuinely shocked if the Roll20 team actually did anything about this issue if I reported it. If another concerned citizen wanted to file a report, I would encourage them to do so. I will be foregoing this course of action, but I appreciate the matter-of-fact guidance you provided in this post.

All right. If that was your intention, conclude any future posts with something like this; "I'm just posting this to inform and warn potential buyers, I'm  not seeking solutions. Chill out and don't reply."

Ishik, As frustrating as it can be with DL on some WOTC products, keep in mind that roll20 doesn't set those products up, Wizards does the DL, monster placement, NPC handouts, etc for the modules themselves.  The suggestion of a bug report was to see if maybe there was an issue with the last DL update that skewed the walls a bit (remember that DotMM was made before the most recent DL went live).  Roll20 can take a look to see if it's something they can fix on their end, or if Wizards has to go in and take a look.  Roll20 does try their best when it comes to official content, but there is only so much they can do. 

Actually, Roll20 does handle the conversion. They set up the DL, token placement, handouts and such. They have severe limitations on how much they are allowed to change, however, and WotC doesn;t design any of their products with VTT use in mind. They certainly don't have a Roll20 expert, a Fantasy Grounds expert, and a d20Pro expert on staff. They send assets to these companies after a licensing agreement has been reached, that company handles the conversion and (I presume) WotC signs off on the conversion.

Sven K. said: Would the Author have done the dl walls close to the walls he would have gotten complaints that they loose any depth for the players. Would he have done the secret walls farther away he would have gotten complaints that there are remnants of the walls of the secret rooms visible (which  imo would have been even more obvious), Would he have done my suggestion of an overlay, he would have gotten complaints from GMs who didn't realize there were overlays who complain that the walls to secret rooms look funny. Sometimes there is no perfect solution. Accurate assessment. The walls were not done Incorrectly, they were done this way by choice. They could have chosen other ways to do the Walls, and those other ways would have different problems / complaints / drawbacks / issues. So they made an informed decision, and made it consistent across the module. I think it works well as it is, I'm playing through this module as a Player still. If you're someone a GM who wants to set it up a different way, Roll20 gives you the power to change it yourself. Similar as you can play with Legos differently than the way they sold 'em to snap together.