Roll20 uses cookies to improve your experience on our site. Cookies enable you to enjoy certain features, social sharing functionality, and tailor message and display ads to your interests on our site and others. They also help us understand how our site is being used. By continuing to use our site, you consent to our use of cookies. Update your cookie preferences .
×
Create a free account

Dynamic Lighting - Updates, Bugs, & Feedback

1644506356
Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
João Luiz said: This week I decided to give another try. Bad call. While in preparation of the map, everything was fine. When in play, apart from many lags for every player, another thing that I haven't seen before happened: the TURN tool went crazy. I had added turns for tokens in two different pages. Usually that works fine for the players. I, as GM, can see tokens from both pages on the Turn Tool, but the players only see the tokens from the pages that they are at. Ok. But not this time. Not only it wasn't showing the token turns for my players (I could seem them as if they were in GM Layer - they were not) but the players could see the tokens from the other page on the Turn Tool. Like, they were fighting orcs and could see the mercenaries they would have to face latter on. Also when we put the mouse over it it didn't mark the token on the map. Very strange. They are making changes to how the turn order tool works. I'm sure the yellow box not being there is a bug.  The tracker showing tokens added from another page (for players) is something that is intended.  I haven't tested it since the change, but I am assuming you would need to keep everything on the other page on the GM layer to keep it from being visible to players.  I don't know if this is posted somewhere accessible by everyone, so I will copy/paste part of a post from the Pro forum: As many may have noticed, there has been an update to the API as it relates to turn order, the turn tracker, and how tokens are added. This change was due to an update to page loading on the VTT. However, to accomplish this we had to make a change to the internal logic of the Turn Tracker to accommodate tracking tokens across multiple pages. This has introduced the requirement for " _pageid"  in addition to " id"  and " pr"  to be present for each item in the Turn Order and are currently exposed within the API. The " _pageid"  property is available on graphics.
1644507210

Edited 1644508515
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Previous behavior: GM: Sees all tokens on the tracker on all pages Yellow box highlights token on the page where it rolled initiative (A token copied and pasted to a different page has a different token id.) Player: Sees only tokens on the tracker for their current page, and only on the Token layer. Yellow box highlights specific token on the page where it rolled initiative, but only tokens they can see New behavior: GM: no change Player: Sees all tokens on the tracker on all pages, (still only on the Token layer). Yellow box behavior unchanged This is a bad change, since it allows players to see tokens which they have not yet encountered (as in post above). As for the yellow box, initiative is token-based, of course, not character based. It will only highlight for the specific copy of the token that rolled. Not copies or subsequent drags.
1644581227
Thank you Kraynic and Keith for the enlightment on Turn Track changes, I wasn't aware. Funny, as the GM I'd prefer to see only the current page tokens, and they went the other way around showing the players tokens from all the pages. I understand it would save time when there are repeated token on diferent pages, like the PCs tokens. Then we don't need to add turn again. However, if the yellow box are not character based, I don't see the advantage. Would have to erase and add after every new page, otherwise the players sees their token mutlipetime. Anyway... sorry for the non-UDL comments here, and thanks again.
1644596448

Edited 1644596707
SOLVED: I need to upgrade my membership. Thanks!
1644925127

Edited 1644925147
Laurent
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
As many others pointed out before me, the&nbsp; The Dynamic Lighting Portal &nbsp;mentioned in the first post is dead. There is something listing some of the bugs that seem to be addressed by Roll20 :&nbsp; <a href="https://portal.productboard.com/roll20/1-roll20-portal/tabs/3-launched" rel="nofollow">https://portal.productboard.com/roll20/1-roll20-portal/tabs/3-launched</a> . What I noticed, though, is that there is no mention of the bug related to API modification of DL token settings : when a token is created through API, with the correct sight settings, the controlling players cannot see anything through it. For the settings to take effect, the GM must open the token settings and save them. Is this bug under consideration at Roll20?
I am about to start a new Cyberpunk Red game and am considering trying NDL again, but all of these bug reports are not inspiring confidence. Would you recommend the switchover yet or nah? And net net what are the benefits of NDL over LDL? I don't mean the full feature list, just something you use in your game that you couldn't do with LDL? Thanks.
1645138836
Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
It seems to really vary by group.&nbsp; I am currently only running one game and play in 4 others.&nbsp; All of them use UDL.&nbsp; The game I was in on Friday evening had 5 players + DM, and used UDL along with the Explorer mode.&nbsp; Other than a server slowdown that hit for 15-20 minutes, the game was smooth.&nbsp; The only issues I have had (as GM) deal with using colored light or tinted vision and applying certain vision settings to a token via api (primarily it is field of view that gives me trouble there). Some people seem to have a lot of trouble with it, and some of us have very little.&nbsp; You will likely just have to give it a try and see if it works with you and your group.
1645140775
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Echoing Kraynic here. Avoid colors and tints. Make sure you as GM are specifically listed as a controller on all NPCs. If Explorer Mode causes problems, check Hardware Acceleration in your browser or use&nbsp; Light Crumbs .&nbsp; Make sure you test in a session zero to make sure that none of your players has an issue. Go through the checklist and Best Practices in the Help Center's Dynamic Lighting portal. With the exceptions of a couple of hiccups a year or so ago, my group has been using it without too much issue. I certainly prefer it to LDL, but that's anecdotal.
@Keithcurtis, what is the advantage of specifically listing myself, the GM, as controller of NPC's? I was not aware that this makes a difference in anything.&nbsp; Thanks for your help.
Thanks for the good info. When you say you prefer it to LDL, why, exactly? I'm trying to wrap my head around the benefits vs. the risk. keithcurtis said: Echoing Kraynic here. Avoid colors and tints. Make sure you as GM are specifically listed as a controller on all NPCs. If Explorer Mode causes problems, check Hardware Acceleration in your browser or use&nbsp; Light Crumbs .&nbsp; Make sure you test in a session zero to make sure that none of your players has an issue. Go through the checklist and Best Practices in the Help Center's Dynamic Lighting portal. With the exceptions of a couple of hiccups a year or so ago, my group has been using it without too much issue. I certainly prefer it to LDL, but that's anecdotal.
1645149971
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
TheWebCoder said: Thanks for the good info. When you say you prefer it to LDL, why, exactly? I'm trying to wrap my head around the benefits vs. the risk. To clarify my next statements: I am not making a recommendation. Nor am I discounting the issues that others have had with either system. Nor do I want to debate. People have their opinions, and that's fair. But since you did ask, my preferences are due to several factors in no particular order: 1) I have never had a lag issue due to UDL.* I have had lag issues of course, but nothing that disappeared after turning off DL. One of my players did, but it disappeared when he switched browsers, leading me to believe his browser was likely not set up properly for Roll20 (he is somewhat technical challenged). 2) The controls are more intuitive to me. Darkvision as light only the character can see is counterintuitive, and forbids a character with night vision from holding another light source. (not a huge issue in 5e, but does not work with Low Light Vision in Pathfinder. 3) I could not stand the "revealed grid" method of Advanced Fog of War. I was clunky, revealed too much or not enough and was inefficient. Also if you tried to use it with some other settings, it would instantly kill performance. It caused me to adopt&nbsp; Light Crumbs . I never used AFoW after it first came out. 4) Although I had one or two instances of "The map is revealed to all players" near the beginning of development, it has not happened in over a year.* 5) The options of UDL greatly outnumber those of LDL: using circles and arcs for DL blockers. Windows (block movement but not sight) and curtains (Block sight but not movement) are possible.Very occasional use of colored light. 6) LDL had plenty of detractors, at least as many as UDL. It had its own issues, and its own shortcomings. Ultimately, it hindered development of Roll20 in general as it was based on outdated technology. It had to be replaced by something if Roll20 is to continue to improve. 7) It is the future of Roll20. All modules have been converted to UDL. All future products will use UDL. I have no desire to modify anything I load as a module or addon back into LDL. 8) I like helping people. It's one of the reasons I spend as much time on the Forums as I do. Since UDL is the current paradigm, it behooves me to understand it as best I can. To make a comparison, A Windows tech can help a lot more people than a Mac tech. (Although to confess: I have been a Mac user since 1986) 9) I have been using it often enough to know where the pitfalls and shortcomings are, and I just avoid using them as much as possible. They are mostly on things I don't care much about. Again, and to reiterate: I am not making a recommendation. Nor am I discounting the real issues that others have had with either system. Nor do I want to debate. People have their opinions, and that's fair. But I was asked. * Some problems occurred early in development, but the last year or so has been steady. The middle of the year saw a huge push in improvement.
1645191230

Edited 1645191847
I am not making a recommendation. Nor am I discounting the real issues that others have had with either system. Nor do I want to debate. People have their opinions, and that's fair. But I was asked. I can tell from the number of disclaimers that this has been a "passionate subject of debate" lol. Appreciate the writeup Keith. Food for thought. Out of your list, making windows that block movement but not sight, and having dark vision in addition to a light source stood out. Those have been limitations of LDL.
1645199561
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
They currently require the API to create. The Door Knocker API script can do this automatically based on color choice.
1645214774
Kenton
Roll20 Team
Lots of good info in this thread already, but I'd like to add some more obscure points. Most complaints of Dynamic Lighting performance issues are resolved when users make sure that Hardware Acceleration is active for their browser. That's been the default for years, but there seems to be users who turn it off. We also have found that there are browser extensions which appear to disable Hardware Acceleration even after a user activates it.
Sorry if this is covered in the last 8 pages but I couldn't see it. I have just discovered that the "Updated Dynamic Lighting" tab is no longer available to me, only the regular one. Did I miss a change somewhere or do I have a bug?
Colin B., The Updated Dynamic Lighting tab is now just called Dynamic Lighting, with the old lighting system accessible by expanding "Advanced &amp; Legacy Settings." If the Dynamic Lighting tab on a token looks like the following screenshot (with Token Vision separate from Token Emits Light), that's Updated Dynamic Lighting: If you see something different from this, please post a screenshot so we can figure out what's going on. Thanks!
1645401549
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Kenton said: Lots of good info in this thread already, but I'd like to add some more obscure points. Most complaints of Dynamic Lighting performance issues are resolved when users make sure that Hardware Acceleration is active for their browser. That's been the default for years, but there seems to be users who turn it off. We also have found that there are browser extensions which appear to disable Hardware Acceleration even after a user activates it. I was finally, finally, finally able to convince one of my tech-challenged players to do this by sending step-by-step instructions. Hey presto! The lag he complained about went away instantly.
1645588033
Getting numerous reports of entire map being viewable by players with the UDL turned on- the only options on are Dynamic Lighting and update on token when drop
1646649686
Tom
Pro
For all the (slowish) progression it is still NOT set and forget like Legacy still is as one can count on it to do the basics with 0 issues.&nbsp; Nice to have some here have it totally working, but note the jumping through hoops still so things don't break, from the GM to the various players.&nbsp; I totally understand a work in progress but things still need to be improved, in my and all my player base still to this day. Food for thought Roll20 team Tom
1646685393
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
I did a UDL trial run with my group for the first time on Sunday. Massive slowdowns for me as the GM as people moved their tokens every which way, people budging up to lines and seeing through walls, and the VTT for me would just become unresponsive and require a browser refresh after about a minute. Back to LDL.
1646686250
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Brian C. said: I did a UDL trial run with my group for the first time on Sunday. Massive slowdowns for me as the GM as people moved their tokens every which way, people budging up to lines and seeing through walls, and the VTT for me would just become unresponsive and require a browser refresh after about a minute. Back to LDL. Have you verified that you and your players have turned on Hardware Acceleration in your browsers? This is the most common source of DL lag.
1646688695
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
The lag was for me processing everyone else's updates, and I turned HW acceleration off and back on again previously (which honestly seemed to make things worse when I did it and tested a map on my own).
1647823414
Paul
Plus
I had that problem--people adjacent to walls and seeing through them--pop up today, again, after happening last week. QUITE irritating. Not a one time thing.&nbsp; Any ideas, anyone?
From what I can tell from other threads, the consensus on avoiding the peekaboo effect seems to be: 1. Avoid thin lines for dynamic lighting barriers. 2. Where possible when drawing dynamic lightling barriers, shift-click to snap to grid to avoid aliasing. I know I've run into the peekaboo effect with regular-thickness lines, but apparently thin lines produce the problem most reliably.
Earlier today I was using the shortcut "Ctrl+L" to see how my Token was seeing, but then this shortcut just opens the Firefox URL bar. Frustrating.
1647844889

Edited 1647861881
Gustavo said: Earlier today I was using the shortcut "Ctrl+L" to see how my Token was seeing, but then this shortcut just opens the Firefox URL bar. Frustrating. You turn on the DL in the Settings from the Page? This happens, if you dont turn on the DL
1647850680
Brian C.
Pro
Marketplace Creator
Compendium Curator
Sarah R. Cohen said: From what I can tell from other threads, the consensus on avoiding the peekaboo effect seems to be: 1. Avoid thin lines for dynamic lighting barriers. 2. Where possible when drawing dynamic lightling barriers, shift-click to snap to grid to avoid aliasing. I know I've run into the peekaboo effect with regular-thickness lines, but apparently thin lines produce the problem most reliably. 1. That hides wall and door art that is thin, and it doesn't always solve the problem. Thick lines will let you see into the line, and medium-thickness lines can be seen through as well. 2. Orthogonal lines can be seen through as well, and many maps have at least some diagonal elements. It strikes me as ridiculous that we are being asked to accept a system that after 3 years of development still has major steps backward from LDL. The addition of color, curved lines, and a second light source on tokens don't overcome being able to see through walls, having the VTT grind to a halt even before Explorer Mode is turned on, having lines obscure art so the players cannot see where a door or wall is, having the lighting system give up and reveal the entire map, having jagged/crawling lines on walls as the tokens move, etc.
Dynamic lighting is almost unusable.
1648195455
Mr G
KS Backer
Explorer mode is certainly unusable. I guarantee within 5 minutes of turning it on one of my players will say, "oh, I can see the entire map now".
Mr G said: Explorer mode is certainly unusable. I guarantee within 5 minutes of turning it on one of my players will say, "oh, I can see the entire map now". Yes! Although the Map appears in grey, it will be visible for all players! AND if explorer mode is turned on, roll20 gets really slow and laggy! Takes forever for a single dice roll to appear or even a character sheet or a handout to open!!!
1648221170
Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
TheMarkus1204 said: Mr G said: Explorer mode is certainly unusable. I guarantee within 5 minutes of turning it on one of my players will say, "oh, I can see the entire map now". Yes! Although the Map appears in grey, it will be visible for all players! AND if explorer mode is turned on, roll20 gets really slow and laggy! Takes forever for a single dice roll to appear or even a character sheet or a handout to open!!! I hope you both have submitted tickets with console logs (and maybe details of your hardware).&nbsp; I don't experience this at all in games I run, or in which I play.&nbsp; None of the other players in any of the games in which I participate experience this, and all games I am in ( as player or GM) use UDL.
1648225590
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
My experience is the same as Kraynic's. I think the devs should put in a warning, similar to the "this token has no sight enabled" when using control-L that warns everyone on an explorer mode map if they do not have Hardware Acceleration turned on. Beyond ensuring that, my only advice is to avoid tinted light/vision, NPCs with sight, and needlessly complex DL setups. That, and troubleshoot with a&nbsp; Dummy Account &nbsp;until you are comfortable with the setup and develop enough familiarity to quickly solve problems.
1648439683
Regarding the Peeking: I just encountered something similar last night with one of my players, and I'm not sure what caused it. It was just the one person, but every so often they would say that they could see the entire map, as if explorer mode was turned off. I'm at a loss as to what could be the cause. When they refreshed, they were back in explore mode, but it showed everything as explored (greyscale).
1648455840

Edited 1648629896
Hans Z said: Regarding the Peeking: I just encountered something similar last night with one of my players, and I'm not sure what caused it. It was just the one person, but every so often they would say that they could see the entire map, as if explorer mode was turned off. I'm at a loss as to what could be the cause. When they refreshed, they were back in explore mode, but it showed everything as explored (greyscale). Same for me although it was just me and I was testing explorer mode for a campaign to run later that week. What I did: I created a token with vision (no tinted light, just night vision turned on) and gave myself the permission to control it while signed in as a player. I moved it around and then something strange happened: the whole map glitched out and I only saw a fraction of the entire map as if zoomed in to the max except it was not. After reloading the page, the whole map was there to be seen as if completely explored (grayscale). As for the lagginess with dynamic lighting and explorer mode turned on I only see it when playing. Even if it runs kinda smooth for me, my DM and other players experience severe lags and there is a huge delay between clicking the roll button and the actual roll to appear in chat or even to open a character sheet...
1648550971
Laurent
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
My experience is the same as&nbsp;TheMarkus1204. I did turn hardware acceleration on, and I try each 2-3 month to activate explorer mode on very simple maps, but always give up after about 5 minutes.
1648565786
I made a distinct post about this yesterday, but perhpas this should be posted here. If I set a light source (on any layer) to be colored, all tokens become translucent, including in the bright light area for a creature without darkvision enabled. A creature with darkvision enabled does not have that problem.... Unless I put a colored tint on the creature's darkvision. Then, other tokens becomes translucent also. If I remove color on the light source or tint on the dark vision, tokens are not translucent anymore in the bright light area. Note: these [bugs?] don't seem to systematically happen, but they do seem to occur most of the time. Generally, is there a way to: a) use colored lights without affecting token opacity b) use tinted darkvision without affecting token opacity When I say they are translucentl, the tokens are nearly invisible to everyone. We've, unfortunately, decided to avoid using colored lighting or tinted darkvision because of that.
1648567059
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
Laurent said: My experience is the same as&nbsp;TheMarkus1204. I did turn hardware acceleration on, and I try each 2-3 month to activate explorer mode on very simple maps, but always give up after about 5 minutes. I'd love to know what the difference is. I've never experienced the lag that some folks report (multiple games and GMs). Only one of my players had reported lag, which disappeared when I walked him through turning on Hardware Acceleration. The only total map reveal situation I have ever dealt with was under LDL. With the exception of the wonky behavior of colored lighting and the very rare case of inverted light (A light source casting darkness), UDL has been a very positive experience, and a vast improvement over LDL and especially AFoW. I'm not dismissing anyone's UDL experiences. Obviously there is a problem. I just wish I knew what factors are yielding such different experiences.
1648571788
keithcurtis said: Laurent said: My experience is the same as&nbsp;TheMarkus1204. I did turn hardware acceleration on, and I try each 2-3 month to activate explorer mode on very simple maps, but always give up after about 5 minutes. I'd love to know what the difference is. I've never experienced the lag that some folks report (multiple games and GMs). Only one of my players had reported lag, which disappeared when I walked him through turning on Hardware Acceleration. The only total map reveal situation I have ever dealt with was under LDL. With the exception of the wonky behavior of colored lighting and the very rare case of inverted light (A light source casting darkness), UDL has been a very positive experience, and a vast improvement over LDL and especially AFoW. I'm not dismissing anyone's UDL experiences. Obviously there is a problem. I just wish I knew what factors are yielding such different experiences. Probably Hardware.&nbsp; Folks who develop software tend to think of things to improve the user experience of the person who bought a brand new computer.&nbsp; I have 18 total players at my tables.&nbsp; 5 of them do not have modern processors(4 or less cores), one uses a dated chromebook that no longer updates the OS.&nbsp; 8 do not have a dedicated graphics card.&nbsp; 4 people do not care for troubleshooting their browser with me or roll20 for privacy reasons or refuse to disable extensions they believe save them from nefarious code(I believe they are bogus adblockers but they don't listen to me).&nbsp; Because of this, I will never be able to run UDL for the people I use roll20 for.&nbsp; However, I am able to run Foundry just fine with advanced features.&nbsp; And do not need to pry into my players browsing habits and they can tweak their settings for performance more easily without affecting their personal data and browser settings.&nbsp; I started a campaign, spent a whole session teaching the players and setting up their browsers to work with UDL, and on the day of the first session, the lighting was reversed, no explanation.&nbsp; Wasted 2 hours trying to get it to work.&nbsp; Swore to never use it ever again.&nbsp; Their vision/light radii were all dark and the world was lit up, this was like 6-7 months ago.&nbsp; I'm sure that some of you guys have pristine experiences, but you are a minority man.&nbsp; The sheer randomness of online VTT RPG means that we're going to have so many diverse hardware setups, linking the user experience to stricter hardware and software setups is exactly why UDL is unreliable, and unreliability is the one thing they cannot afford when their competitor has a standalone application platform.&nbsp; For the love of god, do not sunset LDL, its the only thing keeping the masses using this platform.&nbsp;&nbsp;
1648573376
keithcurtis
Forum Champion
Marketplace Creator
API Scripter
UDL works the same on my Chromebook. It could be a hardware point, but I don't think it is as simple as new, powerful computer/old cheap computer. I realize you have had a large number of negative experiences, but I have had a large number of positive experiences. Neither of us has an overview of the general user base experience, and people aren't very vocal when something works. LDL has some features that I hated—I never used Advanced Fog of War for example. Not for the performance (that was easy enough to fix), but for the whole paradigm, which I felt was a flawed approach. I'd rather concentrate on making UDL a better experience for users than trying to get Roll20 to go back to an older, less expandable system. Because honestly, that's not going to happen. I think trying to convince people to make that backward step is counterproductive to improving UDL. YMMV.
1648675068
Titus
Plus
keithcurtis said: Laurent said: My experience is the same as&nbsp;TheMarkus1204. I did turn hardware acceleration on, and I try each 2-3 month to activate explorer mode on very simple maps, but always give up after about 5 minutes. I'd love to know what the difference is. I've never experienced the lag that some folks report (multiple games and GMs). Only one of my players had reported lag, which disappeared when I walked him through turning on Hardware Acceleration. The only total map reveal situation I have ever dealt with was under LDL. With the exception of the wonky behavior of colored lighting and the very rare case of inverted light (A light source casting darkness), UDL has been a very positive experience, and a vast improvement over LDL and especially AFoW. I'm not dismissing anyone's UDL experiences. Obviously there is a problem. I just wish I knew what factors are yielding such different experiences. You and me both. I’ve tried all the recommendations and STILL have unbearable lag. In the meantime I’ve switched to a different VTT but I would love to come back to Roll20. (At least I can still use here for my board game plays…)
keithcurtis said: UDL works the same on my Chromebook. It could be a hardware point, but I don't think it is as simple as new, powerful computer/old cheap computer. I realize you have had a large number of negative experiences, but I have had a large number of positive experiences. Neither of us has an overview of the general user base experience, and people aren't very vocal when something works. LDL has some features that I hated—I never used Advanced Fog of War for example. Not for the performance (that was easy enough to fix), but for the whole paradigm, which I felt was a flawed approach. I'd rather concentrate on making UDL a better experience for users than trying to get Roll20 to go back to an older, less expandable system. Because honestly, that's not going to happen. I think trying to convince people to make that backward step is counterproductive to improving UDL. YMMV. Agree with your wondering what the real issue is.&nbsp; I know from my experience UDL has been good as well.&nbsp; I like it better than LDL, has more useful features, a better approach, and for me it works well with no issues in our group of 8.&nbsp; I even use some of the features they say not to (like tinted vision for night vision goggles) with no problems (of course, one color only, no green and purple on the board at the same time).&nbsp; Well, we did have one issue, I had a player who could occasionally see the entire map as described above.&nbsp; And as described if he refreshed his browser window it would reset.&nbsp; And I suspect your statement of hardware not being a root cause and an easy thing to blame is probably true.&nbsp; However, from my unique singular point, once we replaced his ancient doorstop with an inexpensive replacement laptop, no more issues.&nbsp; I can't blame it on hardware (I don't know the hardware was the issue), and he didn't get anything new or fancy or powerful (cheap and useful).&nbsp; But new equipment in this instance fixed it, so that's what I have to go on (and yes we did hardware acceleration, and all those other fixes before the new machine, thankfully his old one took a blue screen death nap).&nbsp; But to your point, I also have one player running on a chromebook and my son uses an old surface tablet (like 3 or 4 generations back) and they work just fine.&nbsp; So it can't be just "new hardware" because they are running some relatively old / and-or / inexpensive pieces of gear and they aren't having any issues either.&nbsp;&nbsp; But you are right, not going backwards.&nbsp; The platform just can't.&nbsp; Somewhere they have to figure out what these bugs are and why some have poor experiences and many silent others (myself, you, and others) have had no bad -or even- mostly positive experiences with UDL.&nbsp; I'm not a programmer, but I have friends who are and I suspect that this isn't a simple answer or an easy fix.&nbsp; If it were, it would be fixed by now.&nbsp; Insinuating that a developer doesn't care about all user experiences and is intentionally not fixing something that they can is just blatantly wrong.&nbsp; I know first hand that programmers and developers care about how their work and creations are perceived, and that's how I know that if it was simple, it would be fixed by now.&nbsp;&nbsp; Unfortunately, this doesn't change the frustration for any user that can't get UDL to work as expected and that has to deal with bug issues.&nbsp; And eventually frustration leads to anger, and rightfully so.&nbsp; If I was paying for something, say a dishwasher, and months later it still didn't work right.&nbsp; I'd be pissed to.&nbsp;&nbsp;
1648992002

Edited 1648992144
Michael D. said: keithcurtis said: UDL works the same on my Chromebook. It could be a hardware point, but I don't think it is as simple as new, powerful computer/old cheap computer. I realize you have had a large number of negative experiences, but I have had a large number of positive experiences. Neither of us has an overview of the general user base experience, and people aren't very vocal when something works. LDL has some features that I hated—I never used Advanced Fog of War for example. Not for the performance (that was easy enough to fix), but for the whole paradigm, which I felt was a flawed approach. I'd rather concentrate on making UDL a better experience for users than trying to get Roll20 to go back to an older, less expandable system. Because honestly, that's not going to happen. I think trying to convince people to make that backward step is counterproductive to improving UDL. YMMV. Agree with your wondering what the real issue is.&nbsp; I know from my experience UDL has been good as well.&nbsp; I like it better than LDL, has more useful features, a better approach, and for me it works well with no issues in our group of 8.&nbsp; I even use some of the features they say not to (like tinted vision for night vision goggles) with no problems (of course, one color only, no green and purple on the board at the same time).&nbsp; Well, we did have one issue, I had a player who could occasionally see the entire map as described above.&nbsp; And as described if he refreshed his browser window it would reset.&nbsp; And I suspect your statement of hardware not being a root cause and an easy thing to blame is probably true.&nbsp; However, from my unique singular point, once we replaced his ancient doorstop with an inexpensive replacement laptop, no more issues.&nbsp; I can't blame it on hardware (I don't know the hardware was the issue), and he didn't get anything new or fancy or powerful (cheap and useful).&nbsp; But new equipment in this instance fixed it, so that's what I have to go on (and yes we did hardware acceleration, and all those other fixes before the new machine, thankfully his old one took a blue screen death nap).&nbsp; But to your point, I also have one player running on a chromebook and my son uses an old surface tablet (like 3 or 4 generations back) and they work just fine.&nbsp; So it can't be just "new hardware" because they are running some relatively old / and-or / inexpensive pieces of gear and they aren't having any issues either.&nbsp;&nbsp; But you are right, not going backwards.&nbsp; The platform just can't.&nbsp; Somewhere they have to figure out what these bugs are and why some have poor experiences and many silent others (myself, you, and others) have had no bad -or even- mostly positive experiences with UDL.&nbsp; I'm not a programmer, but I have friends who are and I suspect that this isn't a simple answer or an easy fix.&nbsp; If it were, it would be fixed by now.&nbsp; Insinuating that a developer doesn't care about all user experiences and is intentionally not fixing something that they can is just blatantly wrong.&nbsp; I know first hand that programmers and developers care about how their work and creations are perceived, and that's how I know that if it was simple, it would be fixed by now.&nbsp;&nbsp; Unfortunately, this doesn't change the frustration for any user that can't get UDL to work as expected and that has to deal with bug issues.&nbsp; And eventually frustration leads to anger, and rightfully so.&nbsp; If I was paying for something, say a dishwasher, and months later it still didn't work right.&nbsp; I'd be pissed to.&nbsp;&nbsp; The whole project is flawed because its easily disabled by the client.&nbsp; All you need is any of the various adblockers and you have undetectable maphacks, sure you could&nbsp; combat this with only having trustworthy players but I personally still don't see the value of UDL vs LDL, they look the same to me, especially since explorer mode is broken still and not every tokenmod command works with it yet.&nbsp; If they had made it a toggle to go between the two with a simple mouse click I would gladly help test but because it literally is like pulling teeth to try to test it and it will always burn live playtime to troubleshoot, they purposely made switching and testing their pet project a chore, and that is why its a failed project to me, they just are disconnected from the actual user experience of their paying customer.&nbsp; The very fact they changed where and how to use LDL says everything to me about it.&nbsp; Instead of creating a toggle and making them identical in api keys, they made us all have to setup totally different things to use either system.&nbsp; It is unbelievably demoralizing to have a floor of the dungeon of the mad mage revealed to random players constantly, that just flat out breaks the table as suddenly a few players are walking around with full knowledge of where to go.&nbsp; That alone is why I will NEVER use UDL.&nbsp;&nbsp;
1648998659
Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
DM Eddie said: The whole project is flawed because its easily disabled by the client.&nbsp; I can turn off LDL with the NoScript extension, or at least could a couple years ago, so I doubt that has changed.&nbsp; That really isn't an argument against UDL.
1649583628

Edited 1649583872
Morning all.&nbsp; This is where I sound like someone needs to stroke my hand gently whilst saying "it's all going to be fine, just take a seat next to these nice gentleman in this ambulance we got just for you..." but we were playing a homebrew game last weekend, two characters on the map and UDL on&nbsp; Dynamic Lighting blocks movement, but as it happens it was a swamp map and thus there was nothing to break line of sight and so no DL lines.&nbsp; Heavy gloom though, so daylight settings off, torches required.&nbsp; One character has nocturnal, dimming vision and the other has vision but has to use a torch to see.&nbsp; This is the third map of the game and all has gone well so far.&nbsp; Combat ensues and they chase a troll matriarch (no vision enabled) and suddenly the player using the pc with a torch states he can see the whole map, though far edges are very dim.&nbsp; I advise it doesn't affect anything and we continue with the mayhem. Post game I go in as whilst it didn't alter anything, this was not the desired effect for his character.&nbsp; I check ALL the settings, test it as player and as DM, UDL on, UDL off bleh, bleh, bleh.&nbsp; Eventually I spot that the vision radius is centred on the character with nocturnal, though her vision settings were fine, but as I scrolled down she had inexplicably developed "emits dim light, 200' radius".&nbsp; Like I said, this happened mid combat and I was not messing with any UDL settings when it did.&nbsp; I know I sound like that private ambulance is required, but I swear to all the small gods this is what happened.&nbsp; There is no reason for me to put dim light 200' for a start, I mean, what on earth would require that?&nbsp; In any event, I was not in settings at that time. Has anyone else experienced anything similar?&nbsp; Big fan of UDL as it works perfectly well for our table, but this was weird.
I was happy to read that the bug where tokens could suddenly see the whole map when moving close to a DL barrier was solved... but this happiness didn't last long as i tried logging on DoMM, and moved along a wall. After 4 moves i suddenly could see it all again... Not really solved i Guess... Is there a real solution ? My DM is fed up resetting the Darknesses... Should he erase my token and drag-drop it again ?
1649968901
I've got what I think is a new issue with DL. I have just laid down walls on a new map manually (generally using the polygon line tool). Map is 80x67 units. After I finished and was adding one way doors I noticed this effect on the token I was using to spot gaps: I jumped in to the token view to confirm this was black lines: I then brought in a second token but the effect was the same: I also noticed that the effect tracks ie. if you move the token it recentres the line and now seems to be affecting other parts of the map. Have tried reloading but with no change in the effect.&nbsp; Any help would be appreciated. Hardware-wise, using a new Thinkpad X1.
1649972470
Hold down shift and reload the page.&nbsp;&nbsp;
Since update with one way barrier, I noticed if I drop a token (by using mouse, click and hold, then release) up against a wall (that is normal wall, blocking light/vision/token movement), that token can now see through the wall into the next room with a small cone of vision, allow players to peek through any barrier.&nbsp; I am using the 2nd largest thickness of lines with the line drawing tool to make my walls, and these walls are 1 solid line, no breaks.
1650027951
Redd Killian said: Since update with one way barrier, I noticed if I drop a token (by using mouse, click and hold, then release) up against a wall (that is normal wall, blocking light/vision/token movement), that token can now see through the wall into the next room with a small cone of vision, allow players to peek through any barrier.&nbsp; I am using the 2nd largest thickness of lines with the line drawing tool to make my walls, and these walls are 1 solid line, no breaks. I mean all they have to do is run an adblocker and they can see the whole map and you'd never know so really the whole UDL system is an opt in feature.&nbsp; You have to want it to use it.&nbsp; Client by client.&nbsp; Should they fix it?&nbsp; I don't think they can unless they moved out of the browser sadly.&nbsp;&nbsp;
1650030100
My god, I know you guys are only working on UDL now but you somehow managed to make LDL and AFOW perform pristinely.&nbsp; I know we'll have to wait and see how it performs under stress but I got 2 players to come and look and we all agree, you guys have done something that has VASTLY improved LDL.