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A better way to organize pages.

Score + 1073
I'm having a hard time comprehending how in the wondering world of all that is suffering a 4+year idea is well... 4 years old.
Mad-Imaginative said: I'm having a hard time comprehending how in the wondering world of all that is suffering a 4+year idea is well... 4 years old. 4 years old and easily mitigated with some extra CSS. But somehow "Obstructed".  This is literally my number one issue as a DM, especially since even with the CSS workaround I can't file stuff into folders for ease of use. Add a sidebar tab for maps, handle maps like literally everything else, with folders, thumbnails etc.... It shouldn't be so hard, the framework already exists!
My Traveller campaign on Roll20 is over two years old, I've never counted the large number of maps I've created for it.  I spent far too much time during each session "fighting" maps.  I understand rolling out changes to commercial software is never quick or easy but how about putting it out as Beta.  Gamer's who don't use many maps won't care and those of us who do will give you feedback.  
1570653937
Kenton
Forum Champion
Translator
My apologies for the distance between updates. As mentioned earlier , there are several smaller changes that we hope to implement gradually. There's no firm schedule on those changes as of yet, but I will update here when more information is available. The title slice of this suggestion (better way to organize pages) is not one of those smaller changes. So, while we update and deploy the other enhancements, this suggestion will remain open until page organization is released.
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Edited 1570819516
Kenton said: My apologies for the distance between updates. As mentioned earlier , there are several smaller changes that we hope to implement gradually. There's no firm schedule on those changes as of yet, but I will update here when more information is available. The title slice of this suggestion (better way to organize pages) is not one of those smaller changes. So, while we update and deploy the other enhancements, this suggestion will remain open until page organization is released. For these smaller changes, how much slower than 4 years can 'gradually' be? I'm not trying to be cheeky, but these vague words and updates don't really help anyone. A few minor changes could be done in a day and pushed to the development servers. Why is that not being done? Thank you for the update.
Hello, came looking for this question and found a four year old thread with active input today ?  I actually was getting ready to subscribe but the lack of this single indispensable feature calls that choice into question, especially combined with the inability to copy maps/pages between "games".
1570898438
Kenton
Forum Champion
Translator
Paullan M. said: ...especially combined with the inability to copy maps/pages between "games". Pro Subscribers can copy Pages (and other things) to and from games with the  the Transmogrifier .
@Kenton How much more 'gradually' will changes be then no changes in 4 years? A few minor changes could be done in a day and pushed to the development servers. Why is that not being done? Please address my question, even if the answer is "I don't know". Why are you skipping my question that is directed to you to answer someone else's question that isn't even on topic? I've been a member for over 5 years.
Duncan said: @Kenton How much more 'gradually' will changes be then no changes in 4 years? A few minor changes could be done in a day and pushed to the development servers. Why is that not being done? Please address my question, even if the answer is "I don't know". Why are you skipping my question that is directed to you to answer someone else's question that isn't even on topic? I've been a member for over 5 years. Oof, that hurts the heart to read. Seeing people from over *years* of dedication stressing about simplistic designs grows some powerful concern in my belly.
The continued lack of such a basic function is a large part of why I dropped my paid subscription while I'm not running, and may not return to Roll20 if I do return to GMing.
1570940003
Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
I'm not sure this is so basic.  I think Roll20 started out fairly simplistic (code wise), but that has changed over time.  They have patched on various things to stream video, voice, music, animations, and so on to where I imagine the code as being held together with baling wire, duct tape, and bubble gum by this time.  I expect this is why they have mentioned over the last year the need to rewrite background/infrastructure code on some parts of the site before doing certain upgrades, otherwise it will break whatever upgrade they have done because it won't be compatible with the new back end code. One of the votes on this suggestion is mine, but I am really sceptical of anyone saying anything is easy, quick, and should be rolled out with no problems.  Maybe it can be, but I am willing to trust their word that they need to do some other things that we (hopefully) won't even notice to the basic structure of the code first.  I'd rather they take care of the background issues and get the solution nailed instead of rolling it out, then breaking it when they update core code that it runs on. To be honest, I'm surprised they haven't cut back some of the features just to make this whole mess easier to deal with.
Actually there are some very good points being brought up.  This topic has been a concern for longer than I've been a paid member.  If the only updates Roll20 can manage are "minor changes" than what does that say about the stability of their code base and of their platform?  Maybe last year's exodus of members caused far greater financial injury then they have let on and now no longer have the capital to enhance let alone maintain their product?  
I did not realize this issue was over 4 years old... wowzors. It would make organizing city maps and areas easier. As well as being able to drop random encounters into a literal random encounter folder. It creates a lot of clutter... Just one Folder deep I think is enough for everyone. Create multiple folders but don't need it to be as extensive as the Journal section.  I mean, If I could create a folder for a city, then a new folder just for a house in that city. I'd be happy. Heck, a sub-folder system would be nice by now but... I'd just be happy with one folder deep option atm. Why hasn't this been cleaned up long before video and voice options? Well... I guess if it doesn't happen I'll know to find a different platform. :/  I came on to the forums figuring it was crazy none suggested it. How wrong I was.
Anyone have a strong idea what they mean by "obstructed" cause everything I'm reading talks about 'difficult' or 'gets in the way' Not sure what they are using terminology for when they mean obstructed.
1571518723
Lars K.
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
I means there's something else they have to finish first before starting on this. Probably the internal reorganisation/refactoring that has been mentioned occasionally in this thread, before.
1571519878
Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
Mad-Imaginative said: Anyone have a strong idea what they mean by "obstructed" cause everything I'm reading talks about 'difficult' or 'gets in the way' Not sure what they are using terminology for when they mean obstructed. If you look at the sticky thread at the top of this forum, it tells you what all the labels mean:&nbsp; <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/1280734/read-first-posting-to-suggestions-and-ideas-updated-02-slash-15-slash-19" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/1280734/read-first-posting-to-suggestions-and-ideas-updated-02-slash-15-slash-19</a>
? Duncan said: @Kenton How much more 'gradually' will changes be then no changes in 4 years? A few minor changes could be done in a day and pushed to the development servers. Why is that not being done? Please address my question, even if the answer is "I don't know". Why are you skipping my question that is directed to you to answer someone else's question that isn't even on topic? I've been a member for over 5 years.
1574031719
Dave
Pro
I wonder if there's any chance of a projection on when this issue might be addressed, preferably before year's end? I love Roll20 and have been a subscriber for years, even when I've barely been able to afford it, but better organization of and navigation between maps is such a basic feature that my mind is constantly blown by its lack. Surely this would be more of a quality of life improvement than, say, tinkering with the zoom feature? (And, mind, I liked at least some aspects of the zoom feature change, though I think we&nbsp;needed the ability to toggle them all on/off.) Anyhow, sorry for the ramble--but as I'm once again struggling to organize maps in one of my games, I really find myself wishing for progress on this issue. That said, thank you to the devs and Roll20 team for all your hard work. I know we're all quite needy about things, but your work really is deeply appreciated.
1574214568
DM
Pro
VTT enhancement suite provides some stop-gap improvements in how pages are handled. <a href="https://ssstormy.github.io/roll20-enhancement-suite/" rel="nofollow">https://ssstormy.github.io/roll20-enhancement-suite/</a> &nbsp;
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Edited 1575079326
I've been using this browser plug-in nearly as soon as I discovered it many months ago. It's useful for all kinds of reasons let alone the issue I started in this thread four years ago. It's a useful tool, folks, check it out! DM said: VTT enhancement suite provides some stop-gap improvements in how pages are handled.
This is something many of us have wanted for a long time and I know it's frustrating not having this feature but I thought I'd offer some perspective. I work in the tech industry as an engineer. I've worked for a few startups and a few established companies operating as startups. Basically, it's like making dinner for your friends. One of them hates onions so you don't put onions in anything but then another friend shows up who didn't RSVP and they love onions and are mad at you because nothing has onions in it so the friend who hates onions is all like "I'm cool with onions in the spinach dip" so now you have to re-make the spinach dip with onions in it to make everyone happy because everyone brought you a house warming gift and it would be rude not to make the changes but you're way too busy trying to mingle and be a good host and hope Stacey shows up because you like her but you also hope she doesn't have any suggestions for the potato salad because this party is just getting started and ain't nobody got time for that.&nbsp;
1574851239
Lars K.
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
kuhthooloo said: This is something many of us have wanted for a long time and I know it's frustrating not having this feature but I thought I'd offer some perspective. I work in the tech industry as an engineer. I've worked for a few startups and a few established companies operating as startups. Basically, it's like making dinner for your friends. One of them hates onions so you don't put onions in anything but then another friend shows up who didn't RSVP and they love onions and are mad at you because nothing has onions in it so the friend who hates onions is all like "I'm cool with onions in the spinach dip" so now you have to re-make the spinach dip with onions in it to make everyone happy because everyone brought you a house warming gift and it would be rude not to make the changes but you're way too busy trying to mingle and be a good host and hope Stacey shows up because you like her but you also hope she doesn't have any suggestions for the potato salad because this party is just getting started and ain't nobody got time for that.&nbsp; I'm sure that many of us who actually work in IT can appreciate this sentiment in general. But at this point, we are (metaphorically) asking ourselves why Roll20 hasn't figured out, after N of these parties over the course of over 4 years, that onions in the spinach dip are ok, and in fact required for appreciable taste. Most people try to learn from previous experiences and improve future ones.
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Edited 1575080900
kuhthooloo said: Basically, it's like making dinner for your friends. [...] As the thread's originator, I don't agree with the metaphor. I'll grant that 485 votes out of a 2,000,000+ user base is not significant but, my thread is in the top five in terms of votes and in the top ten on views so, apparently some people want this feature. And while I have been patient, understanding and encouraging to Orr's developers, I have also noticed a lot of disappointed comments from paying users over the last four years of my thread. If I were Orr Group, I'd worry about the optics of this. Give us a status change, Orr! At least take us from "Obstructed" to "Researching."
I also don't agree with the metaphor.&nbsp; A better metaphor would be operating a restaurant for paying customers.&nbsp; You can give out all the free samples you want but if you can't get and keep repeat business you close.
I work as an engineer for a web hosting company, I do backend development work. Simple improvements could be done in 24 hours and pushed to the dev server. This clearly is not a priority for the development team. I even point blank asked a roll20 team member (Kenton, you can see this post above) for more information and they completely ignored me to instead respond to an off topic comment.
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I cannot remember a forum for a game where this sort of post has not been present. &nbsp;Players wanting a feature, game developers not offering it, forums filled with two notable features: (a) customers getting disgruntled at the lack of progress and dialogue from the Devs and (b) the sad, but inevitable, Fanboi vs Disgruntled skirmishes (and in some case full on wars). The one thing I could never get over is how the Devs could easily neutralise the problem with more transparency and I’ve often wondered why. &nbsp;I came across one theory when talking to a friend who was a sales manager for a mobile phone company. &nbsp;He would frequently express how fed up he was with moaning customers. I would often point out that if he was unhappy as a customer he’d raise it. “That’s different” he’d say. &nbsp;“These ones just want to moan for the sake of it.” I’m not saying it’s the case here, but I think sometimes companies become a little numb. &nbsp;They decide it’s easier to switch off because no matter what they’ll always be complaints. &nbsp;I dare say that can also lead to stubbornness. &nbsp;A little bit like dealing with a child. &nbsp;If you give in to their demand you’ll be forever doing so. &nbsp;Of course, our children don’t pay us to be their parents (though now I think about it, they blinking should). Ultimately, it boils down to this: &nbsp;Roll20, you either need to listen to your customers or talk to them. &nbsp;Doing neither is a recipe for disaster.
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Allan said: Ultimately, it boils down to this: &nbsp;Roll20, you either need to listen to your customers or talk to them. &nbsp;Doing neither is a recipe for disaster. At this point, I'd just be happy with a clear, technical reason why they can't do it right now. I don't want the business model reason, I want the explicit, detailed, technical reason why they can't do it.
1576793190
Kenton
Forum Champion
Translator
With the Zoom, Zoom, Zoom release and rework in progress , and the Token Marker Update with custom Token Markers in Beta on the Dev Server , this feature hasn't moved up in the queue.
Kenton said: With the Zoom, Zoom, Zoom release and rework in progress , and the Token Marker Update with custom Token Markers in Beta on the Dev Server , this feature hasn't moved up in the queue. I am guessing you meant this feature _has_ moved up in the queue? ^_^ And will you address my question to you Kenton? I will repost it a third time for you convenience: How much more 'gradually' will changes be then no changes in 4 years? A few minor changes could be done in a day and pushed to the development servers. Why is that not being done? Please address my question, even if the answer is "I don't know".
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I just looked at the VTT enhancement suite that was posted, and holy crap, look at all the features in it! If they can get these things working, why can't Roll20? Some of these are basic improvements that I've seen requested on these forums over and over again.
Aelanna said: I just looked at the VTT enhancement suite that was posted, and holy crap, look at all the features in it! If they can get these things working, why can't Roll20? Some of these are basic improvements that I've seen requested on these forums over and over again. Yeah, I just discovered it myself this year. A lot of nice conveniences.
As told above please by all gods in D&amp;D have a folder system for the page tool bar to help sort all the maps a dm is making and/or uploading for their game. I'm at 20 maps currently and only 4 sessions into the game im running. Folders would help so much with categorizing maps that go together like 2+ floors of a dungeon or specific areas of a city map. It would make everything so much neater (for anyone who is a bit OCD about organization) and make it much easier to navigate as to not spend minutes looking for the map you've prepared among all the several names.
1578965501
Gold
Forum Champion
Searching this thread for the latest updates. Kenton, can you clarify if you meant has or confirm you meant hasn't, in this post from late last year? Kenton said: With the Zoom, Zoom, Zoom release and rework in progress , and the Token Marker Update with custom Token Markers in Beta on the Dev Server , this feature hasn't moved up in the queue. re: "this feature hasn't moved up in the queue."
1579017931
Kenton
Forum Champion
Translator
Ah, sorry for the lack of clarity. What I mean is that, while we're getting closer to taking this project on, with the Zoom and&nbsp; Custom Token Marker releases, the Lighting/Fog and Mobile App in progress, we have not gotten to a point where we have a timeline on release. When I mentioned "gradual" changes, I was referring to the difference between smaller changes that have come up in the thread (Page Menu design) and the Suggestion's original purpose (Organization of Pages).&nbsp;
A few minor changes could be done in a day and pushed to the development servers. Why is that not being done? Am I shadow banned because Kenton seems to purposefully ignore me.
1579509606
Andreas J.
Forum Champion
Sheet Author
Translator
Duncan said: Am I shadow banned because Kenton seems to purposefully ignore me. You're not shadow banned.
1579528315
Noel
Pro
Sheet Author
The VTT Enhancement Suite does a great job of this already.&nbsp; <a href="https://ssstormy.github.io/roll20-enhancement-suite/" rel="nofollow">https://ssstormy.github.io/roll20-enhancement-suite/</a> It lays the pages out vertically instead of horizontally – soooo much better.&nbsp; Aside from the pages layout VTT improves Roll20 in every way imaginable – most of my frustrations have been relieved by installing it. Roll20 should hire that guy, he gets shit done. Not sure why this is marked as "blocked" if it's just that it hasn't been scheduled?
Yes, the VTT Enhancement Suite does do a great job but it doesn't go far enough.&nbsp; I want to store my maps in folders to better organize them.&nbsp; I want more depth to the folder structure.&nbsp; Those two changes would go a long long way to help in the creation and maintenance of detailed campaigns.
1579636542
Kenton
Forum Champion
Translator
Duncan said: A few minor changes could be done in a day and pushed to the development servers. Why is that not being done? Am I shadow banned because Kenton seems to purposefully ignore me. Hey Duncan, sorry about that. I wasn't trying to ignore you, and you're definitely not shadowbanned! To speak to your question directly: the whole team is hard at work every day improving the platform, and we have to weigh which issues need attention sooner than others. The difficulty of a task from a coding standpoint is definitely a part of evaluating these things, but it's far from being the lone aspect that must be considered. We want to be transparent and attentive.&nbsp;So, we appreciate your patience and understanding on these things, and we want to let you know: We hear you, and we'll keep working towards resolving this issue, and improving the platform and our service as a whole.
Honestly this is very disappointing given you yourself agreed that a short compromise wouldn't be that difficult but you are still pushing it back despite it being one of the most popular requests on the site for years.&nbsp; There wasn't even a reason for it being pushed back other than "we have to weigh which issues need attention sooner than others." I understand what you meant by saying which issues need attention sooner than others but this is literally one of the most suggested things on the website because GM's have been in dire need of this for such a long time it's mind boggling how it wouldn't attract your attention as something that needed to be done. I mean this is what you said 8 months ago&nbsp; Kenton said: The Bring Your Own Beat update has been launched. We are scheduling our work going forward, and preparation work for an update to the Page Menu is at the top of the list. Bring Your Own Beat also includes improvements to the organization tools available on Roll20. Manage Audio is a tool we've created to help create, organize, and move assets between games. The relationship between Tracks, Tags, and Playlists seem similar to the enhancements requested for organizing Pages. Let me know your opinion. The fact that I haven't noticed any improvements whatsoever since I started GMing myself back in 2018 is very telling and at this point i'm beginning to question why I paid for this subscription if the votes don't really matter considering how easy it is to make a work around myself for the pages issue.
Kenton, your continual nebulous and meaningless comments do nothing to alleviate our frustration.&nbsp; You provide us no useful information in your posting so maybe it would be better if you only posted when there is some actual improvement to the platform that you can point to.&nbsp; "We hear you, and we'll keep working towards resolving this issue"&nbsp; By what measure can you even claim this to be true?
Kenton said: Duncan said: A few minor changes could be done in a day and pushed to the development servers. Why is that not being done? Am I shadow banned because Kenton seems to purposefully ignore me. Hey Duncan, sorry about that. I wasn't trying to ignore you, and you're definitely not shadowbanned! To speak to your question directly: the whole team is hard at work every day improving the platform, and we have to weigh which issues need attention sooner than others. The difficulty of a task from a coding standpoint is definitely a part of evaluating these things, but it's far from being the lone aspect that must be considered. We want to be transparent and attentive.&nbsp;So, we appreciate your patience and understanding on these things, and we want to let you know: We hear you, and we'll keep working towards resolving this issue, and improving the platform and our service as a whole. You clearly have my patience because this February will mark the 5 year anniversary for this request. But roll20 no longer has my understanding. Why can the community release a web extension that provides some additional functionality? Surely the developers in control of the platform could release at least a similar level of improvements? And again, and again, and again: I work as an engineer for a webhosting company, I know for a fact a few minor tweaks could be pushed to the dev server in sort order. when you write 'we'll keep working towards resolving this issue' can you be more explicit? Does one of your developers open a word document and add an additional letter every day to a road map proposal? That would put the document at nearly 1800 letters, or about 350 words. Is that the work they are doing? Can explicitly tell us what is being done to get this issue resolved after NEARLY 5 YEARS. 5 years may as well be an eternity in web development. Again, why can't roll20 spare 8 hours of developer time to push a minor improvement to the dev servers? Why can't you guys help out us GMs with making an impact on a tool we use EVERY SINGLE TIME WE RUN A GAME. EVERY SINGLE TIME WE RUN A GAME WE GET IMPACTED BY THIS LACK OF A FEATURE. I really really really really really DO NOT UNDERSTAND. HELP ME UNDERSTAND, WHY IS THIS NOT BEING DONE AFTER 5 YEARS 5 YEARS 5 YEARS PLEASE HELP ME UNDERSTAND. THANK YOU.
1580334433
Looking forward to this getting implemented. Glad to hear you guys are working on it.&nbsp;
5 years. This is a major impact on every DM, for almost every session they run.
1582021155
Mark
Plus
Could it be that the Roll20 devs are fully aware there is a script out there that does to a large extent what people are asking for in this suggestion, and thus put it at a lower priority because of said solution? I get that people are screaming for this fix... and yes its a bit ridiculous that its been 5 years... but if there is a solution out there already, why not just install that and then let Roll20 focus on things that the script can't fix?
Mark, that script in use is not a full fix to the problem.&nbsp; Many of us want folders for our maps.&nbsp;
Also, the VTT Enhancement Suite add-on has been known to cause issues with other aspects of Roll20. It is a "use at your own risk" kind of thing, which some are not comfortable with. Also, yeah, folders for maps is what I really want.
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Edited 1582329885
Kenton
Forum Champion
Translator
One of the reasons we work here at Roll20 is because we’re super passionate about tabletop gaming and this platform. Most of us run games and play on and off of Roll20 multiple times per week. We share your passion for making better online tools that save game creators time. I think part of the question here is, if we recognize the need for better page organization (and we do), why not just push a release out the door? If we don’t put enough attention and care towards releases, things can go awry and detract from the experience. Our rollback of the original Zoom tool release is a good example. Nevertheless, we learn from those moments and we are pushing ourselves for well thought out and clean feature releases. Additionally, we want to confirm, this doesn’t mean we aren’t making progress towards this release. In fact, as we mentioned in our most recent Community Roundtable, we’re making as much iterative progress on it as we can right now. Hopefully, this provides some insight into this Suggestion’s situation for you. Again, the bottom line is that we’re excited to approach development that will satisfy this request. Our intention is to provide a well thought out, seamless release, and that takes time, consideration, and care.
One year ago Kenton said: As mentioned previously , we have a plan for significant enhancements but we don't yet have a designated spot on the schedule. We are currently developing and supporting several features to handle critical needs. After those updates, we should be able to put in significant work towards meeting this request later in 2019. Does it now have a designated spot in the schedule?&nbsp; I assume the Zoom update was not a critical need.
1583445694
Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
Stephen H. said: Does it now have a designated spot in the schedule?&nbsp; I assume the Zoom update was not a critical need. I expect the current critical need is the dynamic lighting rewrite that is due out soon.