Hey Adam Thanks for your comment! I wanted to respond directly. I can see how my message wasn't clear. Thank you for pointing that out and keeping us honest! you aren't providing much in the way of specifics here, and it is hard to give Roll20 the benefit of the doubt when we view their actions in totality. You're right. I didn't give specifics when I said, "Troubleshooting and diagnosing performance problems can be VERY difficult." Here is why it's hard for us to diagnose performance problems. (1) It is difficult to get steps to reliably reproduce the specific problems, (2) symptoms look similar but can be caused by something radically different, (3) there are a multitude of variables that affect performance, and (4) cycle time can be time-consuming. Let's take each one of these individually. (1) It is difficult to get steps to reliably reproduce the specific problems Getting reliable steps to reproduce a problem is the gold standard for which we shoot. These steps also make sure that we can test the solution as well. When we have these steps, the true fix to the problem is close behind. But, due to the number of variables that affect a performance problem, it can be nearly impossible to pinpoint all of them. (2) Symptoms look similar but can be caused by something radically different Often times lag, especially frame rate lag, can be caused by any number of things. This is often why so many people describe different ways they get into a laggy state OR it's why some people can't put their finger on exactly what happened right before it got laggy. Grouping these symptoms can lead us down multiple paths. For example, the fix that we posted didn't work for a number of people on this thread. For us, in our testing and what we were reproducing, it worked and is still working. This doesn't mean we didn't fix a problem, it just means we didn't fix all the problems. (3) There are a multitude of variables that affect performance Performance of the VTT is tied to the hardware and software that is used to display it. The number of variables that affect performance are equal to the number of computer types, operating systems, graphics cards, browsers, and rendering options that are out there. These variables can make it hard to get to the bottom of what is causing problems. (4) Cycle time can be time-consuming Because of the large number of variables that are out there, the number of things we need to check can get daunting. I'm sure those of you that have messaged support have experienced this frustration. I know I've read a number of comments on this thread that indicate the frustration. It can be time consuming for everyone involved. — I hope this explains a little more as to why it's hard to troubleshoot performance tickets. I'll restate what I said in my previous message to emphasize it. I want you all to know that I take performance problems very seriously; we are taking them seriously. So seriously that we've spent the last couple weeks thinking through the logistics of how we can fully address these problems. I don't have any updates right now other than to simply let you know that this is important, it requires attention, and it needs to improve. The way we fix this problem and the many others that are listed here is by making more systemic changes. That fix will take us a while but will produce results. The DEV server proved that this problem wasn't due to something on end-user's PCs. If the problem exists on a production server, but does NOT exist on the DEV server (older version of Roll20 code) when accessed with the same device, it is obvious that something Roll20 changed caused the problem. The fact that Roll20 decommissioned the DEV server shortly after this was pointed out is troubling. You are right, performance hasn't always been a problem for everyone and it has been getting worse for some people. It's something that we've been monitoring and it's why we're taking it seriously. I do agree that the timing of decommissioning the dev server might seem weird given your narrative but I can assure you that we didn't decommission the dev server to hide anything. In your next comment, I'll address what I think you might be talking about more specifically. can we at least get a baseline admission from Roll20 that something that Roll20 changed on their end (most likely the Windows/Door update) caused the current problem? Absolutely! We have made a number of changes that could very well be the source of a number of problems in performance for some people. It's one of the main things we're looking into to try and solve these problems. And, you're right, the Windows/Doors could be the source of the problems. Here's some technical information that might help give you more context. We use a number of different rendering engines to help show your map. The main engine we use currently is called Fabric but we've found that it does not give us everything we need. We've identified a new rendering engine called Babylon that gives us a lot more capabilities into the future. It might also reduce the system requirements and speed up performance overall. In order to replace Fabric with Babylon, we had two options. We could either start a long project to replace it all at once or we could slowly roll out new features using Babylon instead of Fabric, slowly replace it over time. We chose the second option and released the windows and doors update with Babylon on top of Fabric. Our current data tells us that the introduction of Babylon does not account for all the performance problems we've seen. For example, the recent fix had nothing to do with Babylon. We're not certain there is one single thing we can "fix" to solve all performance problems. We don't see a smoking gun. I wish we did, it would make things easier to fix. More likely, what we're seeing is a gradual degradation of performance as we add more and more features that require more processing power. This is why we're taking this seriously. We want to make it easier for everyone to tell their stories regardless of the device with which they play. In order to make that happen, we're going to have to do more than just a few fixes. We need a systemic change. Personally, I can remember a time when I stalwartly defended Roll20 and would highly recommend it to all of my players / friend groups. In a perfect world, I'd like to still be there, but the lack of transparency on Roll20's part makes that impossible. If transparency is what is needed, then I can TOTALLY help with that! That's a problem we can fix! But seriously, I really do appreciate you and your dedication to Roll20. It's an honor. And thank you again for keeping us honest. If you or anyone else have questions, comments, thoughts, or opinions, please let me know. If you're not comfortable leaving them in the thread, feel free to message me directly or schedule a time to chat using this link. <a href="https://calendly.com/acsearles/performance-issues" rel="nofollow">https://calendly.com/acsearles/performance-issues</a>
