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Improving Audio, Storage, and Performance

maha e. said:  some are on a fixed income like disability can not afford things working class do it would take away a vital thing like a perscription or a meal, i'm lucky as i can  but many cannot ,there should be something out there that can  benifit both types of players. If $5 a month is going to take away a meal or prescription, you need to evaluate what you're doing with your money. Like spending several months worth of roll20 to afford your internet to play games. People these days have caught an allergy for actually paying for things.
Hello! I seem to be having  an issue with my storage. I was uploading a number of tracks to the jukebox, when i noticed that tracks started to not be uploaded correctly. The thumbnail for them in the upload screen had an "x" over it with a long error message that seemed like it was listing file properties. Re uploading the same track produces the same issue, so I don't believe that it is the file type. I noticed that I had hit my storage capacity as well. However, even after deleting an entire old campaign page, I have been unable to get my used storage number to move. Any ideas on what is going on?
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Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
Big Man said: Hello! I seem to be having&nbsp; an issue with my storage. I was uploading a number of tracks to the jukebox, when i noticed that tracks started to not be uploaded correctly. The thumbnail for them in the upload screen had an "x" over it with a long error message that seemed like it was listing file properties. Re uploading the same track produces the same issue, so I don't believe that it is the file type. I noticed that I had hit my storage capacity as well. However, even after deleting an entire old campaign page, I have been unable to get my used storage number to move. Any ideas on what is going on? This is just the announcement thread.&nbsp; You might want to post that in the bug forum thread found here:&nbsp; <a href="https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/7206828/my-audio-feedback-thread" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/7206828/my-audio-feedback-thread</a>
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keithcurtis
Forum Champion
API Scripter
Also, campaign pages do not count towards your storage. Only images and audio files do that. Deleting a page will have no effect on your storage quota.
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I was curious if someone in the know (and I'm sorry if this was answered elsewhere) can let me know, what with the changes coming, if files (from My Audio) will be able to play upon a map being loaded automatically, and, for god's sake please, can we get more than one file to play upon load?&nbsp; That would change my life.&nbsp; Thank you!
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keithcurtis
Forum Champion
API Scripter
Anything in your Jukebox should be a fair target for Play on Load as far as I know. If you want more control over tracks playing over the other, check out the Roll20 Audio Master script.
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when I load a file, it is displayed "error code 413" and I can not use it, what does it mean?
Would it be possible to get the app more optimized?
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Allynic said: when I load a file, it is displayed "error code 413" and I can not use it, what does it mean? What size file are you uploading? It might mean the file you're trying to upload is too large.&nbsp;
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DM Death
Pro
Sheet Author
API Scripter
Is there a way to (re)arrange the playlists I create? (I am speaking strictly within the upload tool that has been released)
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Isn't the obvious solution just to allow people to add external audio files they've uploaded elsewhere? I pay for file hosting already, why can't I just upload my audio there and add it?
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I'm a paid user and I'm aggravated at how nonchalantly other ones spout condescending bollocks about how free ones have no right to complain or somesuch. Just so you know, I am brazilian, and my subscription costs about two full meals with an icy cold coca-cola along each. Don't take things for granted because you don't know what exchange rates and costs of living in different countries mean. Raising their storage to 300mb wouldn't hurt so much. And it would do one hell of a positive difference. In all honesty, I believe 500mb would still be fine, but there you go. Regardless, I'd like to tackle a bit on the alternatives thing. Correct me if I am wrong, but in my understanding the biggest issue with linking external websites to roll20 most likely has to do with security and/or authentication as the engine reads from the origin but plays the audios by itself, amirite? Are there any websites similar to fanburst in functionality that we could just replicate the former model? Otherwise, what alternatives would be truly viable? Cincopa's audio player, perhaps? Some insights from the dev team would be greatly appreciated, as it would help steer the wheels toward the solution.
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Axel
Pro
Sheet Author
Has anyone suggested a "storage addon" that users can buy? Whatever subscription the user has, they can pay a small amount for additional storage.
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@Daniel C, no Roll20AM isn't by Roll20, it was rewritten by myself and I'm not associated with Roll20.&nbsp; If you want to find out why your having issues you'll need to invite me to game and promote me to GM so I can determine what's going on within your environment.&nbsp; I do not have the same issues you've encountered, though I do run into errors if I've made significant changes to Jukebox (moving songs around, changing playlists).&nbsp; When you do that, you have to remove/reimport your jukebox into Roll20AM.&nbsp;&nbsp;
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@Elho, if you think Roll20 should and can increase free user storage, provide some costs Don't forget to include 1) Disk space 2) Servers to hold the disk space and load balancing servers to share the load of millions of people uploading 3) Backup and Recover of those servers in the event of failures 4) Failover servers in the event of server failure, so another server can immediately come up in it's place 5) Increased bandwidth requirements 6) Increase network requirements Oh, and since paying members are a small minority compared to free users, multiple the costs by up to 2-3 MILLION free users and then tell me that it's cheap.&nbsp;&nbsp;
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Again, what most Plus/Pro users are failing to realize is that they did &nbsp;already increase their storage costs by tripling space and not upping their subscription price. As that's the case there was evidently leeway enough to allow those costs to be mitigated., hence there was either a) The unlikely case of unused GBs of space on the server or b) Upping storage space had little enough impact on their bottom line that they could freely do so Secondly since this is an established website and they don't routinely have to shutdown their entire services to add space, provide hotfixes there is already an infrastructure that can handle bandwidth, network, failover, and backups. Was it funded through Kickstarter initially? Yes, that does not preclude the company from becoming financially liberated and successful. Space, once again is proven to be cheap if no additional fees or subscription cost increases have happened. There is no evidence that supports free users breaking the bank of Roll20, otherwise the majority of the site's features would not be accessible to free users. There are no numbers, but there is evidence that free users can still &nbsp;bring in finances to keep the company successful. In no way can every Plus and Pro subscription account for 90% of revenue, while some users may be "Free" that counts for current subscriptions, not any funding through the market place or purchase of modules.&nbsp; What people are &nbsp;complaining about is a feature that was given as free and had been for years mind you (audio from soundcloud, other services, and previously fanburst), has now become near inaccessible due to space requirements through no fault of the free users. The best equivalency I could give is if suddenly all free users only had a map layer, no token layer whatsoever. Could you run games in this single layer environment? In theory, you could. Has it be become more&nbsp;difficult, absolutely and at a significant drop in quality you had no control over. Everyone appreciates the stability in an audio system centered around Roll20 itself as an all-in-one solution. But, time and time again as this has been asked, is there no potential from integrating eithe Google Drive or Drop Box if space truly is indeed pricy. Moving server load off to another platform (very massive ones that could not disappear) would allow Free Users easier options if increasing their space is a burden upon the site. There is still incentive in subscriptions for the API, Fog of War, and similar features strictly Roll20 platform based.
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@Meta K, what you are failing to realize that if you have a 100,000 - 200,000 paying users, adding disk space is cheap.&nbsp; Roll20's existing infrastructure can most likely handle the increased requirements of uploading and playing music without large changes or additions.&nbsp; When you want to support 2-3 million free users, that's a massive expansion of whatever they currently have and it won't be cheap.&nbsp;&nbsp; No one asked Fanburst to go out of business and there isn't a reliable alternative to it.&nbsp; If there was, I'm sure Roll20 would have used it.&nbsp;&nbsp;
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Ravenknight
KS Backer
The idea that you should be compensated for losing something you didn't pay for to begin with is...odd. I guess I'm just too old to understand.
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Vince
Pro
Sheet Author
Ravenknight said: The idea that you should be compensated for losing something you didn't pay for to begin with is...odd. I guess I'm just too old to understand. “Hear, hear”
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Ed S.
Plus
I don't think its a need to feel compensated, but it would be nice to throw the people a bone. The jukebox has always been available for free and now much of the content won't be usable to free-to-play users. I can empathize.
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Arthur B
Pro
API Scripter
Ed S. said: I don't think its a need to feel compensated, but it would be nice to throw the people a bone. The jukebox has always been available for free and now much of the content won't be usable to free-to-play users. I can empathize. Well, the jukebox is still there, and it's still for free. It's only Fanburst, one of several integrated&nbsp; external services, &nbsp;that is shutting down. The others are still there.&nbsp;And, in addition, you can now upload your own audio files. I fail to understand how people are expecting any kind of "compensation" for an external service shutting down, when they were neither paying for Roll20 nor for Fanburst.
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Any chance of increase the file size of what we can upload, right now it is limited to 26mb.&nbsp;&nbsp;
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I am curious has any research been done into allowing the jukebox to use a browser functionality to play an audio file from the local users computer (GM only) as a way to mitigate both storage and free users concerns? I would think it would not be to much of stretch to add this functionality since streaming voice over web is already done in Roll20. This might even alieviate some concerns about storage space and cost as well copy right issues where usage is a concern? Just a thought perhaps
Victor B. said: @Elho, if you think Roll20 should and can increase free user storage, provide some costs Don't forget to include 1) Disk space 2) Servers to hold the disk space and load balancing servers to share the load of millions of people uploading 3) Backup and Recover of those servers in the event of failures 4) Failover servers in the event of server failure, so another server can immediately come up in it's place 5) Increased bandwidth requirements 6) Increase network requirements Oh, and since paying members are a small minority compared to free users, multiple the costs by up to 2-3 MILLION free users and then tell me that it's cheap.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'd need precise numbers to have an adequate estimation. For starters, you could save physical room by applying hybrid cloud dynamics. Secondly, a dynamic and scalable storage provisioning so there'd be no need to immediately allocate the full 300-500mbs for each new user. That'd be just dumb. With such a technology, each one would use only as much as required, capping at the limit set per account.&nbsp; Hybridisation could save a lot of money, even if you use a DRaaS as well. If anything else, roll20 could easily compensate any extra costs by monetising from free users through ads. I hardly think there'd be any complaints if it were for such a purpose. And this is just an overview. You seem to overestimate prices, most likely due to limited knowledge of the possibilities, and/or underestimate me. I ask that you don't. Try offering alternatives or solutions instead of merely crossing your arms and arrogantly dismissing other people's opinions. I do enjoy the special treatment I get from paying, but I don't find treating those who don't as cattle right at all, either. Remember we're here to be excellent to each other ;)
Mark (GM) said: I am curious has any research been done into allowing the jukebox to use a browser functionality to play an audio file from the local users computer (GM only) as a way to mitigate both storage and free users concerns? I would think it would not be to much of stretch to add this functionality since streaming voice over web is already done in Roll20. This might even alieviate some concerns about storage space and cost as well copy right issues where usage is a concern? Just a thought perhaps I'd like to wholeheartedly commend you for your suggestion! This would be just lovely, and not too different from online radios that have been working since the early 2000s, at least. It's a technology that's been around for so long it's easily manageable.
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Ravenknight
KS Backer
Mark (GM) said: I am curious has any research been done into allowing the jukebox to use a browser functionality to play an audio file from the local users computer (GM only) as a way to mitigate both storage and free users concerns? I would think it would not be to much of stretch to add this functionality since streaming voice over web is already done in Roll20. This might even alieviate some concerns about storage space and cost as well copy right issues where usage is a concern? Just a thought perhaps That would be a wonderful implementation.&nbsp;
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mAc
Pro
A streaming functionality like that would be amazing. If it worked...
Honestly, I think you guys need to consider increasing the storage for free users up to 500mb.&nbsp;
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I will probably hate myself later for jumping into this, but in a hotel room and need a break from my work project.&nbsp; One thing to consider is basic business cycle and logistics. It may well be that R20 was able to bump Subscription users resources within existing infrastructure but doing so for a larger user base requires infrastructure expansion which means financial investment. The user community here has no idea if there are plans under discussion to add additional resources for the rest of the user base and there is no reason for R20 or any company to reveal what is under discussion until there is something substantial for public consumption. Arm chair System Engineers can certainly talk about how easy a disk upgrade is using the latest widget, but an SE worth his salt understands it isn't always the rack and stack that is the long pole in the tent. Anyway, injecting new hardware into a complex IT infrastructure takes time and planning if done properly. Aside from architecture design and review, change control, and basic planning for the cutover, there is a procurement cycle to obtain gear, a test cycle to burn in and validate new gear, etc, etc. Moreover, despite what many people in the world may believe, companies work on a budget and don't have unlimited buckets of cash. Even a 5k or 10k procurement can be difficult on a small company with limited liquid cash flow and can take time to simply get funds appropriated at international conglomerations. I find it interesting people argue that it is 'cheap' or it is 'expensive' but those terms are being viewed through the eyes of the user. In other words, you are arguing relative value based on spending someone else's money. What is cheap and what is expensive in this case is only relevant against R20's current financial position. Even if they are flush with Venture Bucks, doesn't mean there is a deep bucket of liquid cash available to spend on a 2 week turn. Either way, I believe it is a private company so they are under no obligation to show anyone here their checkbook no matter what anyone thinks they might be owed as paid or free user. Or, perhaps, said upgrade requires additional rack space at their hosting provider and the could result in an upgrade cycle with said provider that takes time to procure and execute. Again, R20 has to earmark funds, cut the Purchase Order, place the order and then the hosting company needs to process and execute on the order. Yes, I know new rack space doesn't take that much time. The point is, there are business tasks to be accomplished beyond just "buy a new disk drive and slam it into slot B".&nbsp; It could be that R20 is talking to other service providers to replace the vendor that went out of business. If you have never been involved in a legal negotiation for that sort of partnership or arrangement, then you may well be surprised at how detailed and agonizing such discussions can get. Setting up a new partner agreement can be measured in months, not hours. Now, I am sure someone out there is thinking, fine, then just tell us you are doing that. Well, that can be a bad choice during a negotiation. And, to add to that, I doubt R20 has a full time attorney on staff. Most likely they retain services from outside council and I do not suspect that is cheap and, again, there is a definite cadence to this process. I haven't really followed closely, but it seems Fanburst shutdown announcement was rather abrupt and folks are getting up in arms because R20 (a small company) hasn't done enough to adapt to satiate everyone impacted immediately. I get it...folks are impacted and its uncomfortable and everyone is entitled to their opinion about what they want/would like to see. But how about giving R20 a little credit for adapting to a difficult situation which was beyond their control rather quickly within the means immediately available to them. Further, let us not assume other solutions are not on the table or in the works just because there has been no public announcement or they haven't happened yet. It takes time to architect, procure, test, deploy, negotiate, appropriate funds, etc, etc, etc in the business world.&nbsp; anyway, not saying anyone is right or wrong and there are lots of good points made about technology and possibilities. Just keep in mind that folks here can brainstorm ideas that sound awesome but that doesn't mean that is the best option available to the business nor an option that can be executed in a few short weeks.&nbsp;
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thread is a bit TLDR for me but as a once paid user and a free user now due to life needs. i will say this free users are delayed in entering there games and have a bit of self service ADS for Pro Subs banner style and in the delay. which we all accept as cost of using it as a free user why not for those free users who go over there limit. have the option of turning on a banner ad site wide like most other sites and showing an&nbsp; outside hosted ad and during the delay to say off-set for a small increase 100 mb. then maybe have a tier of $12 a year to pay for that small increase without ads anything else they would do a full sub. some people can afford monthly but could save for once a year small payments for what they need.&nbsp; now i do understand one reason for not having outside ads that being security and keeping it family friendly just offering a non suggest and reminder that Free users do in some way pay for the free services they use just not in a direct to roll20 way.&nbsp;
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Elho said: I'd need precise numbers to have an adequate estimation. For starters, you could save physical room by applying hybrid cloud dynamics. Secondly, a dynamic and scalable storage provisioning so there'd be no need to immediately allocate the full 300-500mbs for each new user. That'd be just dumb. With such a technology, each one would use only as much as required, capping at the limit set per account.&nbsp; Hybridisation could save a lot of money, even if you use a DRaaS as well. If anything else, roll20 could easily compensate any extra costs by monetising from free users through ads. I hardly think there'd be any complaints if it were for such a purpose. And this is just an overview. You seem to overestimate prices, most likely due to limited knowledge of the possibilities, and/or underestimate me. I ask that you don't. Try offering alternatives or solutions instead of merely crossing your arms and arrogantly dismissing other people's opinions. I do enjoy the special treatment I get from paying, but I don't find treating those who don't as cattle right at all, either. Remember we're here to be excellent to each other ;) Exactly my point.&nbsp; I don't have precise numbers.&nbsp; I don't know their infrastructure.&nbsp; You are assuming they are cloud based and/or could easily integrate with cloud.&nbsp; &nbsp;That's the difference between us.&nbsp; You have no idea of the costs, but claim it should be cheap.&nbsp; I have no idea of the costs, and that's why I'm not claiming it's cheap.&nbsp; And as a matter of experience, I know it isn't.&nbsp; &nbsp; I've posted the same thing many times now in this thread, because users are implying that Roll20 should and could support free users in a manner similar to paying users.&nbsp; I'm trying to point out that the costs involved are much larger than people think.&nbsp; Roll20 isn't simply choosing to exclude free users.&nbsp; .&nbsp;&nbsp; Read @Hoot Games post (2 above).&nbsp; He's obviously built infrastructures also.&nbsp;&nbsp;
Hoot Games said: I will probably hate myself later for jumping into this Don't! I've been involved in such negotiations a few times and I can assure you that was a way more didactical (And impartial to boot!) assessment than I myself could have done :) Victor B. said: Exactly my point.&nbsp; I don't have precise numbers.&nbsp; I don't know their infrastructure.&nbsp; You are assuming they are cloud based and/or could easily integrate with cloud.&nbsp; &nbsp;That's the difference between us.&nbsp; You have no idea of the costs, but claim it should be cheap.&nbsp; I have no idea of the costs, and that's why I'm not claiming it's cheap.&nbsp; And as a matter of experience, I know it isn't.&nbsp; &nbsp; I've posted the same thing many times now in this thread, because users are implying that Roll20 should and could support free users in a manner similar to paying users.&nbsp; I'm trying to point out that the costs involved are much larger than people think.&nbsp; Roll20 isn't simply choosing to exclude free users.&nbsp; .&nbsp;&nbsp; Read @Hoot Games post (2 above).&nbsp; He's obviously built infrastructures also.&nbsp;&nbsp; I never said it "should be cheap". I merely displayed ways of optimising the infrastructure while reducing costs and even generating some more revenue if needed. Neither did I say roll20 is excluding free users - When I mentioned the cattle treatment, I was referring to paid users acting condescendingly towards the free ones. We should focus on proposing alternatives and solutions rather than engaging in senseless nitpicking, for real.
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Dylan L. said: At the appologists for R20 's decision to screw us Free Users over (I stand by my statement); please stop making excuses for the site.&nbsp; Yes, Fanburst screwed us first with being unable to maintain their achitecture &amp; hosting.&nbsp; That still does not change the fact that the gap between paid and unpaid users has grown even further, and being forced to use third party sites (re; having to open a secondary window, instead of using features native to R20) defeats the entire purpose of why most of us joined up in the first place.&nbsp; So instead of telling us to "suck it up or pay up"; why don't you speak on OUR behalf to the admins and get some equity in service back to the free users, hmmmm? Just a polite suggestion. I think the polite thing to do is to thank a BUSINESS for giving you a very LARGE portion of their software to you for absolutely no cost. That's incredibly generous. They could, and should, put the whole thing behind a pay wall. Also, don't get a cheeseburger 1 time every month and TADA! 3GB of storage. Handled.
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Editting my post to be a little less teasing. X3 I play with four other friends, who all use the free option. They get all the fun effects, and as far as I can tell they get them when they're co-DMing with me, even. So far, we've all felt this to be a pretty good deal. :)
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Crimn
Plus
Hello! I've been wanting to ease into this new Audio system, but i feel like there is ALOT not covered in what is OKAY to download. I've been wanting to buy a few audio tracks from amazon, and others i'm not sure if they are covered under fair use or not (since i can't find anywhere to buy the tracks), but I feel like that i can never be sure if what I want to try and download would effect some unknown terms of service to me. I'm the DM of my party, so what i do effects other people, and i'm trying to inform myself about this.&nbsp;
alguem que jogue d&amp;d me chama pra uma mesa pfvr, quero aprender, sou legal prometo kkk&nbsp;
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Pat S.
Forum Champion
Sheet Author
Crimn. If you treat it as if you are using it in a game at your kitchen table then that is fair use. If you are monetizing your game that is using the music and charging money for the game then it doesn't fall into fair use. That is how it was explained to me.
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Crimn
Plus
that...makes alot of sense actually, thank you. but for the sake of being sure, it's good as long as it's kept on the kitchen table, and not being used to monetize from.&nbsp;
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Pat S.
Forum Champion
Sheet Author
Yes if I understood it. As long as it is for your personal group, aka kitchen table, it is fair use. The moment it is being used to create a revenue, aka monetized, it is considered commercial and that is a whole different ball of wax.
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mAc
Pro
Is there a way to delete songs you uploaded?
Ahem... What about the promises you made to the Free Users???
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Kraynic
Pro
Sheet Author
A lot can change in 6 years, and I have no idea what the context of that post was since the initial post they respond to in your image is offering payment (and therefore not free) for additional storage.
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Nolan T. J.
Roll20 Team
Jonas Full said: Ahem... What about the promises you made to the Free Users??? (ha, that's awesome!) So, May of 2012, we're in the closed Kickstarter beta.&nbsp; At that point there is no subscription tier yet (no Dynamic Lighting or API), we swear that we're never doing character sheets (because sheets wouldn't be part of a table :P), that we believe tags are superior to folder organization and as such we'll only be using tags, and we have no item Marketplace.&nbsp; In that conversation there is no such thing as a "free" user as a campaign owner; as everyone had chipped in on the Kickstarter. We did, however, do many things for Kickstarter backers-- as Richard promised, they all have increased storage and other ongoing bonuses-- and when we later launched the Marketplace, we made the logical decision to give additional storage space correlating to items bought to that sort of purchaser as well. (I should note-- in double-checking this before I commented, it appears that there is a bug that can impact a Kickstarter backer's storage if they are coming off of an active subscription and reverting to free. I've made an internal ticket to get that handled, and if anyone is impacted in the meantime, PLEASE send us a note.) As for modern-day free account holders, we'll continue monitoring usage trends, optimizing storage within Roll20, and looking at sustainable/scale-able solutions to add down the road. In any case, we will continue to add improvements to Roll20 for all users-- as we always have-- for the foreseeable future.
I'm a little... confused... 1. I joined my game, the FANBURST Music, was still playing and my player hearing it too. 2. I still have access to Fanburts, can upload, download and listen to songs. So what the hell is even the problem with Fanburst? THIS is suspicious to me, before I pay, I want to know the reason for all the issues, thank you.
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Nolan T. J.
Roll20 Team
Illien said: I'm a little... confused... 1. I joined my game, the FANBURST Music, was still playing and my player hearing it too. 2. I still have access to Fanburts, can upload, download and listen to songs. So what the hell is even the problem with Fanburst? THIS is suspicious to me, before I pay, I want to know the reason for all the issues, thank you. Fanburst may have not actually closed down their service on the advertised date. Please use caution in depending on their functionality (but enjoy what you can while you can)!