Transmogrifier allow copying of folders

Andrew Searles said:

Hey Folks,

So... I have some news. We just closed our sprint where we were working on this feature. We tried out a few different solutions. We are currently worried that we will not be able to solve this in a way that makes it intuitive to use. We're still looking into it.

As we do, I'd love to talk with some of you about what we have so far to get your feedback. If you're interested, here's a link to my calendar where you can setup a time for us to chat that works for you.

https://calendly.com/acsearles/transmogrify_folders

I do somewhat understand some of the technical concerns with transferring whole folders while looking into this.

I think majority of people would enjoy being able to see the folders and what not while using the transmogrify to make easy of use when moving this. Even if you drag things one at a time if you can basically see how it's setup like normal or maybe just a few different viewing options, would make it much easier to transfer assets. alphabetical, date used, and folder view/ thumbnail view. Could make many people happy I think.

Would it be amazing to be able to transfer a whole folder? Sure. I don't see it being much more intensive than copying a full game. But I imagine it might not be that simple.

I myself (and from I can imagine and have heard from many others) have ALOT of character sheets.
My game personally has gone on world wise since i joined roll20 (just about 9 years?!).  It's impossible for me to remember what each sheet is called. I usually put them into folders marked as "Bad guy team this" or something. And If i need to find just one thing it takes forever to opening up another game and find it than open up the transfer and search just for that one name i finally found and than rinse and repeat for anything else i might want to find. Wracking my brain to remember what it was called.
I've of course found my own work around but it's not nearly perfect.  (some work arounds opening up every folder highlighting everything and saving it as a pdf so i can search through it.. and heaven forbid if we ever go back to that game. and even more troublesome keeping track of which one was updated last..)

Thank you for taking the time to be transparent with us and working on these things.

Having the option to sort the items in the Transmogrifier by user-defined folder instead of just alphabetically by category would help a lot.

Mr. NumNums said:

I do somewhat understand some of the technical concerns with transferring whole folders while looking into this.

I think majority of people would enjoy being able to see the folders and what not while using the transmogrify to make easy of use when moving this. Even if you drag things one at a time if you can basically see how it's setup like normal or maybe just a few different viewing options, would make it much easier to transfer assets. alphabetical, date used, and folder view/ thumbnail view. Could make many people happy I think.

Am not sure to understand the challenges and potential limitations. I would assume such folders being comparable with standard computer folders?

Typically am using the journal folders in that way, and simply moving the folder and its content by the transmogrifier would enhance my GM experience, moving more quickly handouts and characters between games. BTW ... why are in-Journal PDFs not visible?

A potential "reduced"solution but still much better than what we have today, would be to at least see the folder structure in the transmogrifier and move the content one by one as we do today. That way I would still gain some sort of guidance / orientation to find quickly what am looking for.

Andrew Searles said:

Hey Folks,

We've just released the ability to transmogrify PDFs. I know it's not the original ask, but it is one step closer to it! Because PDFs are included in folders, it would be weird if they didn't work with the transmogrifier when you moved over an entire folder (when that becomes available in the future).

We're making progress towards the ability to transmogrify folders, but we're still very much stuck on the user experience of moving those folders. I've talked to a couple of you but I'd love more feedback. If you'd like to chat and see what we have so far, please schedule a meeting with me on this calendar.

https://calendly.com/acsearles/transmogrify_folders 

Thank you so much for all the work you guys are putting into this ^^.
I look forward to seeing it once it's finished.

End goal should being able to move folders but it would be a decent QoL to at least be able to see Folder Structures in the Transmogify UI.
That alone would be a huge time saver. Currently as is, all the handouts are jumbled together and alphabetized. 
If I can see what "folder" they are in and just drag them 1 by 1 in this current state - that is a big W for me. 

Same for Music and allowing Music to have subfolders

TBH even if it's just barebones moving folders I'll be happy. It'll save alot of time for many people.
Later down the line when they come up with better ways to move things I'll be happy for that too.
But progress even if it's little by little is still worthwhile ^^ 

Andrew Searles said:

Hey Folks,

We've just released the ability to transmogrify PDFs. I know it's not the original ask, but it is one step closer to it! Because PDFs are included in folders, it would be weird if they didn't work with the transmogrifier when you moved over an entire folder (when that becomes available in the future).

We're making progress towards the ability to transmogrify folders, but we're still very much stuck on the user experience of moving those folders. I've talked to a couple of you but I'd love more feedback. If you'd like to chat and see what we have so far, please schedule a meeting with me on this calendar.

https://calendly.com/acsearles/transmogrify_folders 

Any updates?
Anything looking in sight for a release?

+1

+1. This needs a solution, good luck guys.

+1

Seems everyone went silent on it. That new update seems they might have a better solution. But if that doesn't allowing copying of folders than idk what to say.

Question: does the prototype show the journal structure in the transmogrifier?

I can envision two modes for the transmogrifier:
- sorted mode, that is the current mode where all items are sorted by type and then alphabetically
- journal mode, where you will see both journals side to side and can drag over an item or a folder. And it will be fine to have a note to NOT change anything while executing this - just like the note about not uploading/processing images.

(and yes i am aware of duplicate id's that will cause complexities)

What also would work for me is to have a 'gameaddon' mode, where you can select another game and transmogrify the whole game over or get a report with errors/clashes. Errors like:
- adding this game would exceed the maximum amount of characters/handouts/... or
- the following list of characters have duplicate IDs

I would be really happy with something like (FAKED SCREENSHOT):

Thanks for the update and thanks for being frank and clear Andrew. 

Much appreciated!

For me it would not make much sense to not see the content of folders and to not be able to select the content to be copied or overwritten, but that's just me.

Andrew Searles said:

Mr. NumNums said:

Seems everyone went silent on it. That new update seems they might have a better solution. But if that doesn't allowing copying of folders than idk what to say.

Hey Mr. NumNums,

Nothing new to report, unfortunately. We're still at an impasse on the level of quality we want to release this with. Our quick solution for this seems to be a lot more complicated than we hoped for. As it stands today, we have a working prototype that allows you to move over the folder from one game to another but you can't see what is in that folder when you're in the Transmogrifier.

While I appreciate that something is probably better than nothing, sometimes delivering a half solution can cause more problems than it solves.

For right now, we're still noodling on it hoping that future situations will make a better solution for this more clear.

Remind me, did I show you the prototype? If you'd like, to schedule a demo, I'd love to show it to you. Here's a link for you or anyone else to use to schedule a time on my calendar.

https://calendly.com/acsearles/transmogrify_folders 

One thing that I want to make sure is clear from your statement. If by update you mean the newly redesigned toolbar that we'll be releasing soon, then no; it will NOT include anything for transmogrifying folders. In fact, it will not touch the Transmogrifier at all. In the future, it is likely that we will redesign the transmogrifier, but we have no idea if and when that will happen.

Thanks again for keeping this in the forefront! I'll respond back here if we get any motion on this.

I'm personally fine with just knowing the folder name. A folder marked "Desert Dungeon monsters" Will most likely have those things in it. lol. Much easier to remember just a folder than looking for each character.
It cuts down on alot of time. Cus my problem is remembering what each little thing in that desert dungeon is. EX: Did I name that one wondering merchant goblin Tom?? Was it just Merchant goblin?? Now I have to go back to that game and look it up cus my searches were unfruitful. etc etc

Re: update

Oh I meant the saving sheet thing that was teased abit.


Being able to move full folders in any form is still great to me.
I only have to be mindful of what i name my folders going forward. Which is fine when there can be up to 10 sheets or more in a folder for me lol.

Personally I would find it very useful to be able to import a folder without necessarily seeing what's in it.

What I would most love to use this feature for are "infrastructure" items, things like spell area templates or progress clocks that I save as blank characters so that I can drag their default tokens onto the VTT / share them with players to be able to manage their own spell areas. Especially when I have multiple colors or subtypes, currently I have to keep recreating subfolder structures of "Area Templates > Cones > Lightning" etc over and over. I'm always going to want to port over the entire "Area Templates" folder wholesale, so it doesn't actually impact my purposes at all if I can't see what's in the folder beforehand.

It would be a huge benefit to me to get that functionality ASAP, as currently it's a big unnecessary setup pain in literally every game that I create, not a niche occasion.

I do see where being able to dive into and more granularly select what's in folders would also be a great feature, especially for finding a specific item in context without needing to remember what it's named alphabetically. But for me, it's a lot less common that I would be using the Transmogrifier for one individual character from another campaign, vs the entire top level section with dozens of templates.

I understand the desire to not push out a half-baked feature, but personally I do think these have distinct enough use cases that there is value in at least getting one. I would be really disappointed to not see any folder support at all, or to see it get indefinitely shelved again because of not being able to get both features out together.

Rowan P. said:

Personally I would find it very useful to be able to import a folder without necessarily seeing what's in it.

What I would most love to use this feature for are "infrastructure" items, things like spell area templates or progress clocks that I save as blank characters so that I can drag their default tokens onto the VTT / share them with players to be able to manage their own spell areas. Especially when I have multiple colors or subtypes, currently I have to keep recreating subfolder structures of "Area Templates > Cones > Lightning" etc over and over. I'm always going to want to port over the entire "Area Templates" folder wholesale, so it doesn't actually impact my purposes at all if I can't see what's in the folder beforehand.

It would be a huge benefit to me to get that functionality ASAP, as currently it's a big unnecessary setup pain in literally every game that I create, not a niche occasion.

I do see where being able to dive into and more granularly select what's in folders would also be a great feature, especially for finding a specific item in context without needing to remember what it's named alphabetically. But for me, it's a lot less common that I would be using the Transmogrifier for one individual character from another campaign, vs the entire top level section with dozens of templates.

I understand the desire to not push out a half-baked feature, but personally I do think these have distinct enough use cases that there is value in at least getting one. I would be really disappointed to not see any folder support at all, or to see it get indefinitely shelved again because of not being able to get both features out together.

I completely agree.

Not being able to see the folder before moving it isn't a huge deal right now. You can always check another campaign to see. If you have a strong desire or "need" to move an entire folder to another game, you probably already have a good idea of its contents!

I would think a necessary step before implementing this is implementing another suggestion: the ability to delete or archive Folders from the journal (including all contents inside the folder). If you can do that, then if you accidentally import something you don't like, you can clean house rather easily.

Might I also suggest, letting the transmogrifier behave somewhat more like a traditional file browser? If you open it, you can go through different folders representing different campaigns. Inside are subfolders for Journals with folders, pages, jukebox, etc. You could change between text or picture view, collapse easily some folders, and even see useful sortable info like 'date added', 'name', 'file size', etc.

Also, I think that seeing all the stuff on the right is usually not necessary. That ideally would be a button or setting to be collapseable. 90% of the time I use the transmogrifier, I'm just bringing something from a different campaign into the one that's open. A full (or fuller) screen window where you select some stuff and click "open" would add it to your game. Near "open" could perhaps be a button that says "transfer to" or something instead?

So we just waiting on votes? Cus I'll get a poll going and hunt down the votes if that's what's needed. lol.

Mr. NumNums said:

Rowan P. said:

Personally I would find it very useful to be able to import a folder without necessarily seeing what's in it.

What I would most love to use this feature for are "infrastructure" items, things like spell area templates or progress clocks that I save as blank characters so that I can drag their default tokens onto the VTT / share them with players to be able to manage their own spell areas. Especially when I have multiple colors or subtypes, currently I have to keep recreating subfolder structures of "Area Templates > Cones > Lightning" etc over and over. I'm always going to want to port over the entire "Area Templates" folder wholesale, so it doesn't actually impact my purposes at all if I can't see what's in the folder beforehand.

It would be a huge benefit to me to get that functionality ASAP, as currently it's a big unnecessary setup pain in literally every game that I create, not a niche occasion.

I do see where being able to dive into and more granularly select what's in folders would also be a great feature, especially for finding a specific item in context without needing to remember what it's named alphabetically. But for me, it's a lot less common that I would be using the Transmogrifier for one individual character from another campaign, vs the entire top level section with dozens of templates.

I understand the desire to not push out a half-baked feature, but personally I do think these have distinct enough use cases that there is value in at least getting one. I would be really disappointed to not see any folder support at all, or to see it get indefinitely shelved again because of not being able to get both features out together.

I completely agree.

100% this - I'd rather be able to move a whole folder and have to weed out a few extraneous items than have to move a lot of items one at a time

100% this - I'd rather be able to move a whole folder and have to weed out a few extraneous items than have to move a lot of items one at a time

Weeding out items is easier than recreating a folder structure by hand.
Taking that thought to the extreme: instead of having a really complex change to the transmogrifiying in order to properly copy folders, how about a feature to add a complete game - like game addons. Of course with some restrictions to protect against Frankenstein games (like only able to import games with a maximum 100 npcs, 100 handouts, 20 pages and a single unique top folder name).

Could you work with that?

Note: As a five year user of Roll20 i would love to get anything useful in this area delivered, even if it is limited/ not perfect.

Seems the majority do want to move folders even in it's current version.

To summarize how it'd work (from what I understand):

1) You can move folders but you can't see what's in said folders just the names.

2. A) They can either have it so it erases any sheets that are duplicated due to the move. (much like how it is now)

2. B)Or it simply duplicates without erasing. (prob lean towards no erasing. Since players can always go and delete extra sheets themselves)

As it stands that's the best they can offer without new updates to the system in place. Later down the line they can make better systems but that's once everything settles with current overhauls etc etc.


So At this point do we need more people signing off?
Fallow this subject to give feedback.

Mr. NumNums said:

Seems the majority do want to move folders even in it's current version.

To summarize how it'd work (from what I understand):

1) You can move folders but you can't see what's in said folders just the names.

2. A) They can either have it so it erases any sheets that are duplicated due to the move. (much like how it is now)

2. B)Or it simply duplicates without erasing. (prob lean towards no erasing. Since players can always go and delete extra sheets themselves)

As it stands that's the best they can offer without new updates to the system in place. Later down the line they can make better systems but that's once everything settles with current overhauls etc etc.


So At this point do we need more people signing off?
Fallow this subject to give feedback.

Did join a demo and can confirm that 1 + 2A was shown. This is good enough for some use cases, like:

- pushing a bestiary or lore from a from a master game to other games

- moving curated folders between games

with the caveats:

- items in the target game will be overwritten.

- cannot move over a page/scene with all related objects in one go - pages are not part of the journal folder structure, not all referenced characters/notes might come over.

- attributes of characters need extra handling to prevent issues with edited characters.

As a personal opinion: rather have this version than no version. I can understand these limitations and i can live with these limitations.



There is a fundamental problem with 2B. There is no 'simply duplicates'. Each object has an ID, the ID is globally unique across all objects in this game. Attributes of characters are also objects. Copying an object as a duplicate implies that those objects are assigned new IDs, as there cannot be two items with the same ID. So if you copy over a page and a folder with associated monsters, duplicated objects will not be linked anymore and the links on tokens can be broken. Also, if you drop a folder twice you end up with many duplicates - it is not possible to curate your own bestiary/lore folders and sync those to other games.
As a personal opinion: don't do this. please.


The game copy proposal posted here was a result of joining the demo (thanks for the demo Andrew!) and thinking about the problem like a developer. What can you do given the complexity of reality. The proposal amounted to: Do not touch (ie destroy by accident) the current transmogrifier, or handle folders as per 2A which would be even nicer. Build a new functionality that adds a whole game in a single operation, taking care of object IDs and links. The functionality can be like: When you select a game to import, analyze the contents of both games, provide a meaningful report and then let the user decide how to handle existing objects and folder structures. Whether to keep or overwrite objects, whether to move existing objects to the source journal folder structure or whether the source is a oneshot that has to become a independent silo in the target game.
The report might be like a report as created by Campaign Survey (https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/10675897/script-campaign-survey). Show the amount of objects per type before and after adding, with a warning/limitation to prevent frankenstein games. I tried to break roll20 and if you transmogrify Curse of Strahd into Tomb of Annilihation and then drop in all monsters from the Creature Codex Compendium, you get pretty close to the breaking point - a user needs to at least be aware of reaching this borders.

Weekly bump.

Still need. Would make life easier.
Please open new sprint. Thank you ^^

We all still need it btw. dying out here lol

"Obstructed" Isn't really a good peg. Since nothing is stopping you all from giving us what we want :'(

Every Pro member needs this. The main reason I became a pro was to large amount of sheets I'm making and assets I'm using. To be able to move them around more quickly and easily is a must.

Well, obviously, there is something keeping them from implementing this, as Andrew Searles reported back in May. I have no idea what's involved in adding this functionality to the transmogrifier, but if it were easy I'm sure they'd have done it. Adding folder transfers would save me TONS of work, even if I can't see the folder contents and need to trim afterwards.

I hope they figure it out soon, but I'd rather wait for a finished and fully de-bugged update  than have them release something that we have to beta-test for them.

Mr. NumNums said:

"Obstructed" Isn't really a good peg. Since nothing is stopping you all from giving us what we want :'(

Rick A. said:

Well, obviously, there is something keeping them from implementing this, as Andrew Searles reported back in May. I have no idea what's involved in adding this functionality to the transmogrifier, but if it were easy I'm sure they'd have done it. Adding folder transfers would save me TONS of work, even if I can't see the folder contents and need to trim afterwards.

I hope they figure it out soon, but I'd rather wait for a finished and fully de-bugged update  than have them release something that we have to beta-test for them.

Mr. NumNums said:

"Obstructed" Isn't really a good peg. Since nothing is stopping you all from giving us what we want :'(

Well it's either what they got. Or nothing till they overhaul the whole system lol. I'd rather have something now than nothing.

What they can give us is a name of folders and able to move them over with their contents. But you can't see what's in the folders.

I'm fine with that until they can give us something more.

Please give us what you can guys! Anything IS better than what we got. (NOTHING!)

500+ paying players needing the ability to transfer folders be like:

Everyone here Waiting around for anything at all.

Mr. NumNums said:

Rick A. said:

Well, obviously, there is something keeping them from implementing this, as Andrew Searles reported back in May. I have no idea what's involved in adding this functionality to the transmogrifier, but if it were easy I'm sure they'd have done it. Adding folder transfers would save me TONS of work, even if I can't see the folder contents and need to trim afterwards.

I hope they figure it out soon, but I'd rather wait for a finished and fully de-bugged update  than have them release something that we have to beta-test for them.

Mr. NumNums said:

"Obstructed" Isn't really a good peg. Since nothing is stopping you all from giving us what we want :'(

Well it's either what they got. Or nothing till they overhaul the whole system lol. I'd rather have something now than nothing.

What they can give us is a name of folders and able to move them over with their contents. But you can't see what's in the folders.

I'm fine with that until they can give us something more.

The alternatives is to get off their keister and finally release the ability to make custom compendiums. They already have the ability for game manufacturers to make compendiums for their games. Just give us that... even if it precludes the use of official compendiums. They could allow someone to clone an existing compendium for private use, and then they can modify as they deem appropriate (delete options, add options, etc)

Adam K. said:

Mr. NumNums said:

Rick A. said:

Well, obviously, there is something keeping them from implementing this, as Andrew Searles reported back in May. I have no idea what's involved in adding this functionality to the transmogrifier, but if it were easy I'm sure they'd have done it. Adding folder transfers would save me TONS of work, even if I can't see the folder contents and need to trim afterwards.

I hope they figure it out soon, but I'd rather wait for a finished and fully de-bugged update  than have them release something that we have to beta-test for them.

Mr. NumNums said:

"Obstructed" Isn't really a good peg. Since nothing is stopping you all from giving us what we want :'(

Well it's either what they got. Or nothing till they overhaul the whole system lol. I'd rather have something now than nothing.

What they can give us is a name of folders and able to move them over with their contents. But you can't see what's in the folders.

I'm fine with that until they can give us something more.

The alternatives is to get off their keister and finally release the ability to make custom compendiums. They already have the ability for game manufacturers to make compendiums for their games. Just give us that... even if it precludes the use of official compendiums. They could allow someone to clone an existing compendium for private use, and then they can modify as they deem appropriate (delete options, add options, etc)

That would also be a solution yes. ^^

I wish they'd just release even what they could. I'd deal with the bugs lol

I gotta say, I'm very happy to see that I can now delete a folder AND it's contents. That quietly got added. Perhaps a step in the right direction to make this feature a reality?

Daniel S. said:

I gotta say, I'm very happy to see that I can now delete a folder AND it's contents. That quietly got added. Perhaps a step in the right direction to make this feature a reality?

The feature to delete folders and all contents was added a while ago. Sadly this is / was no indicator for this. And since the redesign of the VTT is still WiP, I don't think this will get implemented soon...

TheMarkus1204 said:

Daniel S. said:

I gotta say, I'm very happy to see that I can now delete a folder AND it's contents. That quietly got added. Perhaps a step in the right direction to make this feature a reality?

The feature to delete folders and all contents was added a while ago. Sadly this is / was no indicator for this. And since the redesign of the VTT is still WiP, I don't think this will get implemented soon...

They already Have the means to give us what we want. But seem to not want to implement it due to some sense of it being wonky. (although i feel there's more to it that they're hesitant to say.) Although most things on roll20 are already wonky (As i see it) So i'd much rather it just be implemented for pro users that will most likely understand the risks and work with it as they always have.

Rather than the disappointment and sadness we have now. :'(

Seems the larger issue for many Pro users that use this option is having to move assets around in the first place. I know for many i've talked to and myself the reason we move the sheet around is because if we had them all in one game, the game runs really slowly.

I Wonder if they'll address this ever?
Moving assets seems the easiest way to deal with it but they seem unwilling to do this for some reason. :(

+1 really need this as the APIs in my game are really buggy and the only solution seems to transmogrify everything.

We still need this. all 500+ Pro, paying users. :/

Just being able to move over folders would be fantastic.  Wanting to add chapters/encounters from storm king or elemental evil to my existing game would be so nice without all the components needing to be reorganized.

Andrew Searles said:

Hey Mr. NumNums,

Nothing new to report, unfortunately. We're still at an impasse on the level of quality we want to release this with. Our quick solution for this seems to be a lot more complicated than we hoped for. As it stands today, we have a working prototype that allows you to move over the folder from one game to another but you can't see what is in that folder when you're in the Transmogrifier.

While I appreciate that something is probably better than nothing, sometimes delivering a half solution can cause more problems than it solves.

I would offer that I don't need to see what is in the folders. Moving folders from one game to another would mean I can do all of my setup work, as far as maps, etc, in my "master game" and then copy it all to my other games. 

You have what I need; six months ago by the date on your post. 

Some may believe it is a half measure but for me it is all I need.

Any progress on this front would be appreciated.

Erich S. said:

Andrew Searles said:

Hey Mr. NumNums,

Nothing new to report, unfortunately. We're still at an impasse on the level of quality we want to release this with. Our quick solution for this seems to be a lot more complicated than we hoped for. As it stands today, we have a working prototype that allows you to move over the folder from one game to another but you can't see what is in that folder when you're in the Transmogrifier.

While I appreciate that something is probably better than nothing, sometimes delivering a half solution can cause more problems than it solves.

I would offer that I don't need to see what is in the folders. Moving folders from one game to another would mean I can do all of my setup work, as far as maps, etc, in my "master game" and then copy it all to my other games. 

You have what I need; six months ago by the date on your post. 

Some may believe it is a half measure but for me it is all I need.

Any progress on this front would be appreciated.

Same. It's strange they'll release all these half done improvements but for some reason wont let us have this??
It'd save me ALOT of time.

Honestly, when you release folders (which is great - love the tree structure as well) you need to fix the transmogrifier at the same time. Now I have several chapters of a huge campaign all in one game. Great. But I want to move certain chapters (and not others) into another game. Can you imagine the headache of trying to locate the parts of one chapter in the transmogrifier - with all files listed alphabetically sans folders? This is a matched set guys - folders need to be carried over into the Transmogrifier. Add "all games" into the tree. Let us drag the folder anywhere!

+1, +1, We really need this!

John S. said:

Honestly, when you release folders (which is great - love the tree structure as well) you need to fix the transmogrifier at the same time. Now I have several chapters of a huge campaign all in one game. Great. But I want to move certain chapters (and not others) into another game. Can you imagine the headache of trying to locate the parts of one chapter in the transmogrifier - with all files listed alphabetically sans folders? This is a matched set guys - folders need to be carried over into the Transmogrifier. Add "all games" into the tree. Let us drag the folder anywhere!

Yes completely. We need a push for this. It would be very simple to implement some form of this.
We need everyone to voice that they want this and stay on it.

Hultz (Keeper of Secrets) said:

+1, +1, We really need this!

Make sure to fallow this post and keep reminding them if we want something to happen. Otherwise it gets passed over for what they think is more important.

The request to copy folders was requested at least 7 years ago! If it is so hard to do changes, then sometimes it is better to start from the scratch, not continue to build on a outdated architecture.