[Torg Eternity] Sheet redesign thread

Unfortunately it wont work with the current sheet, because the buttons aren't properly named. Hopefully you only have to wait till Monday/Tuesday (when roll20 updates the sheets).

Happy Dance!  Next game isn't until the following Saturday....Come on Roll20...update those sheets. Off to figure out how to install your script code.  This will be the first one I do, hopefully I can't mess it up to bad.  I has to be copy pasta.

Boo.  Scripts don't get copied when you copy a game.  I'll have to favorite your script page or something.  To keep things clean I create a new game from a base game I created for each new adventure rather than have on giant game with everything in it.  

I began a thread on The Piazza for the question about how many folks use the alternate Possibilities in their games.&nbsp; The answers, thus far, have been surprising and informative.&nbsp; <a href="http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=112&amp;t=23726&amp;p=247111#p247111" rel="nofollow">http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=112&amp;t=23726&amp;p=247111#p247111</a>

Michael D. said: The only complaint I have with the possibilities is how you are handling cosm specific possibilities.&nbsp; I'd prefer for the total displayed without opening the drop down to be the total for all cosm's, and then pop out for dealing with the specifics.&nbsp; But I understand why you have it the way you do, it is much easier to code.&nbsp; We use A LOT of cosm specific possibilities ... so this is a little clunky...but it works.&nbsp;&nbsp; I can't make the total possibilities include cosm-specific possibilities, without losing the ability to use the buttons to spend them. There's no way to select which possibility to use, when spending, and in any case, most players wont have them so it reduces the simplicity of just clicking a button. I wonder about your use of lots of cosm-specific possibilities. Was it one of your characters that had 8 of a specific type? That struck me as odd at the time because (I may be wrong here), I thought you were still limited to your normal total (3 for most characters). So if you had 1 Aysle Possibility, your general possibilities dropped to 2. That's how I understand it, I'm curious if its correct.

No, that's incorrect.&nbsp; To the best of my recollection, your character's have a MINIMUM of 3 Possibilities per Act, but there is no limit on the number of Possibilities a Player may earn for their Character.

I agree you can go above that, but when you refresh, if you are below that, thats what you'll refresh to.

Yes when you start a new Act you have 3, though if you had a bunch of Cosm possibilities you could keep some of them as some of the 3. But it could go up significantly during play.

My DPI is set at 100%. I went and switched to different compatibility modes and checked it as well and it still showed like that. GiGs said: Yeah, Both Possibilities and Vulnerable are a bit cramped there. I'm on chrome usually too, and they fit comfortably at my end. There's a little wiggle room for expanding them - I dont want to make the sheet as a whole wider, but there is some space at the right there to expand into. I wonder though, do you have DPI settings increased to 125% or something? Just wondering why the text is bigger for you.

I don't know if it's been asked before (even by me!) since this thread has gotten pretty long but is there a way to make the skills listed under Defenses clickable like the regular ones to do a roll?&nbsp; Also, with the Tharkold and Pan Pacifica books coming, maybe having a dedicated Willpower (Mind) defense as well for telepathic attacks? It comes up a fair amount when psychics are in play. Actually now that I look at it I see Ithriel that I imported had her Willpower and Scholar set to Charisma...

Zoula said: My DPI is set at 100%. I went and switched to different compatibility modes and checked it as well and it still showed like that. GiGs said: Yeah, Both Possibilities and Vulnerable are a bit cramped there. I'm on chrome usually too, and they fit comfortably at my end. There's a little wiggle room for expanding them - I dont want to make the sheet as a whole wider, but there is some space at the right there to expand into. I wonder though, do you have DPI settings increased to 125% or something? Just wondering why the text is bigger for you. Can you send me a link in PM to your campaign so I can have a look? Someone asked me to look at their campaign earlier and I declined, but that was a sheet scripting issue and I cant see those details in someone else's campaign. But this is a display issue, and I can play around with the display settings to see what is happening there.

Zoula said: I don't know if it's been asked before (even by me!) since this thread has gotten pretty long but is there a way to make the skills listed under Defenses clickable like the regular ones to do a roll?&nbsp; Also, with the Tharkold and Pan Pacifica books coming, maybe having a dedicated Willpower (Mind) defense as well for telepathic attacks? It comes up a fair amount when psychics are in play. Actually now that I look at it I see Ithriel that I imported had her Willpower and Scholar set to Charisma... I dont remember that being asked about defences. Why would you click them - you never roll defences? Having a button there could cause confusion, since you might have different modifiers on defences than you do on the actual skill. (In theory.) My understanding of the way those defences work: they are phrased like this, "DN: Use Willpower or Mind". That doesnt mean you use Mind with Willpower. It means you use Willpower (with its normal stat, Spirit), or Mind, whichever is better. So there's no need for dedicated Willpower(Mind) defence. I see that with Ithriel. Weird, I thought the skills were being imported correctly now. (and wow, impressive Spirit.) Something I need to check.

Zoula said: Yes when you start a new Act you have 3, though if you had a bunch of Cosm possibilities you could keep some of them as some of the 3. But it could go up significantly during play. So, wait a minute, let me see if I understand this... when you move into a new Act, if you have EARNED more than three (3) Possibilities, you lose those?

Uhhh.... you know... I just had a giant brain fart when I looked at it I guess. You're right about the defense things heh. But as far as willpower based on Mind goes, from Torg Core pg 205: Note that the DN for many powers is the target’s willpower or Mind. If the target doesn’t possess willpower, use Mind. If the target has willpower it adds to his Mind, rather than his Spirit. GiGs said: My understanding of the way those defences work: they are phrased like this, "DN: Use Willpower or Mind". That doesnt mean you use Mind with Willpower. It means you use Willpower (with its normal stat, Spirit), or Mind, whichever is better. So there's no need for dedicated Willpower(Mind) defence. I see that with Ithriel. Weird, I thought the skills were being imported correctly now. (and wow, impressive Spirit.) Something I need to check. You see the kind of cheesemongering I'm putting up with? :D

Torg page 68: Possibilities are tokens or chips used to track how much Possibility Energy a Storm Knight contains at any one time. Storm Knights reset to three Possibilities at the start of each act. Pauly da Leg-breaka said: So, wait a minute, let me see if I understand this... when you move into a new Act, if you have EARNED more than three (3) Possibilities, you lose those?

That was in your test campaign with the imported character, you still need to look in the original? GiGs said: Can you send me a link in PM to your campaign so I can have a look? Someone asked me to look at their campaign earlier and I declined, but that was a sheet scripting issue and I cant see those details in someone else's campaign. But this is a display issue, and I can play around with the display settings to see what is happening there.

GiGs said: Zoula said: I don't know if it's been asked before (even by me!) since this thread has gotten pretty long but is there a way to make the skills listed under Defenses clickable like the regular ones to do a roll?&nbsp; Also, with the Tharkold and Pan Pacifica books coming, maybe having a dedicated Willpower (Mind) defense as well for telepathic attacks? It comes up a fair amount when psychics are in play. Actually now that I look at it I see Ithriel that I imported had her Willpower and Scholar set to Charisma... I dont remember that being asked about defences. Why would you click them - you never roll defences? Having a button there could cause confusion, since you might have different modifiers on defences than you do on the actual skill. (In theory.) My understanding of the way those defences work: they are phrased like this, "DN: Use Willpower or Mind". That doesnt mean you use Mind with Willpower. It means you use Willpower (with its normal stat, Spirit), or Mind, whichever is better. So there's no need for dedicated Willpower(Mind) defence. I see that with Ithriel. Weird, I thought the skills were being imported correctly now. (and wow, impressive Spirit.) Something I need to check. Actually wrong.&nbsp; This was a Forum question a while back and was discussed relative to psychics (and I had to go looking for it cuz I have a psychic and playing and we got into a long discussion of what the rule meant).&nbsp; It would take me a while to find the clarification, but I probably could if you asked.&nbsp; But, when the game says "use Willpower or Mind", they mean to use willpower, but with mind as the controlling attribute.&nbsp; That is why way back at the beginning of this I asked if I changed the attribute that was controlling a skill if it would auto update and recalculate the skill and defensive value, which the sheet does.&nbsp; So, the player (or GM) can temporally edit their sheet and change the controlling attribute, and them make the defense roll, and then change the attribute back.&nbsp;&nbsp; I do this A LOT with my players.&nbsp; Pickpocket is a trick skill, with Dex as the controlling attribute (as an example).&nbsp;&nbsp; My plan was to just have the players (or GM) temporally edit the sheet.

Pauly da Leg-breaka said: Zoula said: Yes when you start a new Act you have 3, though if you had a bunch of Cosm possibilities you could keep some of them as some of the 3. But it could go up significantly during play. So, wait a minute, let me see if I understand this... when you move into a new Act, if you have EARNED more than three (3) Possibilities, you lose those? It's like vacation.&nbsp; Use it or loose it.&nbsp; When the dramatic scene hits, you are near the end of the act, so start buffing those rolls.

Michael D. said: Pauly da Leg-breaka said: Zoula said: Yes when you start a new Act you have 3, though if you had a bunch of Cosm possibilities you could keep some of them as some of the 3. But it could go up significantly during play. So, wait a minute, let me see if I understand this... when you move into a new Act, if you have EARNED more than three (3) Possibilities, you lose those? It's like vacation.&nbsp; Use it or loose it.&nbsp; When the dramatic scene hits, you are near the end of the act, so start buffing those rolls. And all of your cards reset, so you know all those hero and drama cards you were fishing for...you get to shuffle the deck and start over there as well.&nbsp;&nbsp;

Zoula said: That was in your test campaign with the imported character, you still need to look in the original? GiGs said: Can you send me a link in PM to your campaign so I can have a look? Someone asked me to look at their campaign earlier and I declined, but that was a sheet scripting issue and I cant see those details in someone else's campaign. But this is a display issue, and I can play around with the display settings to see what is happening there. Oh... the test campaign looks perfectly fine to me, so that's no help, lol.

Michael D. said: GiGs said: Zoula said: I don't know if it's been asked before (even by me!) since this thread has gotten pretty long but is there a way to make the skills listed under Defenses clickable like the regular ones to do a roll?&nbsp; Also, with the Tharkold and Pan Pacifica books coming, maybe having a dedicated Willpower (Mind) defense as well for telepathic attacks? It comes up a fair amount when psychics are in play. Actually now that I look at it I see Ithriel that I imported had her Willpower and Scholar set to Charisma... I dont remember that being asked about defences. Why would you click them - you never roll defences? Having a button there could cause confusion, since you might have different modifiers on defences than you do on the actual skill. (In theory.) My understanding of the way those defences work: they are phrased like this, "DN: Use Willpower or Mind". That doesnt mean you use Mind with Willpower. It means you use Willpower (with its normal stat, Spirit), or Mind, whichever is better. So there's no need for dedicated Willpower(Mind) defence. I see that with Ithriel. Weird, I thought the skills were being imported correctly now. (and wow, impressive Spirit.) Something I need to check. Actually wrong.&nbsp; This was a Forum question a while back and was discussed relative to psychics (and I had to go looking for it cuz I have a psychic and playing and we got into a long discussion of what the rule meant).&nbsp; It would take me a while to find the clarification, but I probably could if you asked.&nbsp; But, when the game says "use Willpower or Mind", they mean to use willpower, but with mind as the controlling attribute.&nbsp; That is why way back at the beginning of this I asked if I changed the attribute that was controlling a skill if it would auto update and recalculate the skill and defensive value, which the sheet does.&nbsp; So, the player (or GM) can temporally edit their sheet and change the controlling attribute, and them make the defense roll, and then change the attribute back.&nbsp;&nbsp; I do this A LOT with my players.&nbsp; Pickpocket is a trick skill, with Dex as the controlling attribute (as an example).&nbsp;&nbsp; My plan was to just have the players (or GM) temporally edit the sheet. I see, and Zoula provided the page reference earlier. When you asked, i just assumed it was for house rule reasons. There's no easy way to cope with that. I have some inklings of a way to handle it, but I think I should table that for now in order to get the sheet published next week. As you say, you can temporarily change the skill's ability if needed.

Michael D. said: Pauly da Leg-breaka said: Zoula said: Yes when you start a new Act you have 3, though if you had a bunch of Cosm possibilities you could keep some of them as some of the 3. But it could go up significantly during play. So, wait a minute, let me see if I understand this... when you move into a new Act, if you have EARNED more than three (3) Possibilities, you lose those? It's like vacation.&nbsp; Use it or loose it.&nbsp; When the dramatic scene hits, you are near the end of the act, so start buffing those rolls. I like this. It stops hoarding (a problem with previous iterations of the rules).

I made some small tweaks to the community sheet's appearance to alleviate some of the display issues. Since I cant see them, I have to guess so I might not be there yet, but have a look and take screenshots if there are still issues. I also adds an extra Will (Mind) defence by shrinking the defences marginally. See if it looks okay. Now I'm off to bed :)

Here it is: still no room between Axioms: and Magic "Success" width is good now, "Damage Note" still uses 2 lines. because it uses the width of "Attack Note"

GiGs, if I were to export my character in your latest campaign to the Vault, will it still be good to go with the various changes you've been making since last weekend when the campaign went up?

Markus said: Here it is: still no room between Axioms: and Magic "Success" width is good now, "Damage Note" still uses 2 lines. because it uses the width of "Attack Note" Made another tweak to axioms and damage note, check it out. By the way, its not that daage note is using the width of attack note, its that attack note is using the width of damage note. I set them both to the same width, but set them to the widest one (damage). It's just that isnt wide enough for your browser settings for some reason. I'm keeping them the same width: when you have dense black borders like that, and everything at a different width, it looks pretty bad. keeping them in grouped sets creates symmetry and makes them look better. I also widened the Duration column a little, and centered the ammo. I should probably center the other numerical inputs in there, but for now, let me know what that looks like.

Pauly da Leg-breaka said: GiGs, if I were to export my character in your latest campaign to the Vault, will it still be good to go with the various changes you've been making since last weekend when the campaign went up? I think so, as long as you dont have any values in the Mod column of defenses. The attribute names there changed so they wont be transferred. Though remember I did say importing and creating characters here was for testing purposes, and am not liable for any breaking changes! lol. I think thats the only change that would affect individual characters (changes to the sheets structure dont affect attributes so they dont affect characters).

GiGs said: Though remember I did say importing and creating characters here was for testing purposes, and am not liable for any breaking changes! lol. Gotcha, LOL.&nbsp; I think if something does break, worst-case scenario is I'd have to rebuild my character, hehe.&nbsp; Ooh, ouch, give me my fifteen minutes back, LOL. Thanks, man.

Is the Attack Note and Damage Note being on the same line a new change you made? Just wanted to make sure this is what it was supposed to look like. I also added another character Lord Jonathan Lockhardt which has a lot of skills and was made by one of my.. less fastidious players so things might be all over the place. Might be a nice one to see where things went heh. But I don't have permission to view it for some reason.

Michael figured out that permissions are based on what they were set in the campaign before they were exported. Since you arent the GM in the new campaign you cant view it. It's best to set them to All Players before exproting.&nbsp; But I'll jump in and fix this one now.

It looks like most of the skills are set to CHA, which happens if the versionator cant identify the attribute. I wonder why that is happening. Can you import the character into this campaign:&nbsp; <a href="https://app.roll20.net/join/6154630/d0tdtg" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/join/6154630/d0tdtg</a> Its a copy using the original sheet, so i can look at it before any upgrades occur.

So first full night of playing around with the new sheet last night. Tried to do everything with the new sheet to see how it went. Only thing troubling was the Possibilities did not work about a third of the time.&nbsp; I made sure to have everyone select their token before rolling the possibility, but still sometimes it was referencing a random previous roll. What am I doing wrong?

You had an issue with that with your previous custom sheet didnt you? I havent had any issues with it yet but havent played extensively. It may be that the method is flaky - it is a bit of a hack.&nbsp; All i can suggest is make sure people are careful about hitting the correct button. Click the button that matches a specific roll. If they click the possibility button for a different roll, it will use a different character's stored result. Note: i am going to tweak the rolltemplate output to include the characeter name, to make it easier to track previous rolls.

It says you haven't set this one to allow imports. GiGs said: It looks like most of the skills are set to CHA, which happens if the versionator cant identify the attribute. I wonder why that is happening. Can you import the character into this campaign:&nbsp; <a href="https://app.roll20.net/join/6154630/d0tdtg" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/join/6154630/d0tdtg</a> Its a copy using the original sheet, so i can look at it before any upgrades occur.

It's set now. I could have sworn I set that, maybe I forgot to save it. Zoula said: It says you haven't set this one to allow imports. GiGs said: It looks like most of the skills are set to CHA, which happens if the versionator cant identify the attribute. I wonder why that is happening. Can you import the character into this campaign:&nbsp; <a href="https://app.roll20.net/join/6154630/d0tdtg" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/join/6154630/d0tdtg</a> Its a copy using the original sheet, so i can look at it before any upgrades occur.

Added. I had to redo it since the first one didn't have All Players, but the second one seems alright GiGs said: It's set now. I could have sworn I set that, maybe I forgot to save it.

GiGs said: Made another tweak to axioms and damage note, check it out. By the way, its not that daage note is using the width of attack note, its that attack note is using the width of damage note. I set them both to the same width, but set them to the widest one (damage). It's just that isnt wide enough for your browser settings for some reason. I'm keeping them the same width: when you have dense black borders like that, and everything at a different width, it looks pretty bad. keeping them in grouped sets creates symmetry and makes them look better. I also widened the Duration column a little, and centered the ammo. I should probably center the other numerical inputs in there, but for now, let me know what that looks like. Here: No difference, still no space between And: Looks good now

Thats an improvement at least! Try again, I made another tweak to axioms.

how do we add shields?

Paul V. said: how do we add shields? That's a good question. I hadnt considered shields. Shields are added on a judgement call, usually to melee and sometimes dodge, vs up to 3 opponents. That's a lot of conditionals so its hard to apply them on the sheet. The easiest way would be to add them to your equipment list, and just remember the effect. Bear in mind that hits are not handled in any automated way - you talk to find if you have been hit (or have hit your opponent), so it's easy enough to handle this way. If you want to write it on the sheet, you could add the bonus to the Mod column of Melee, but the fact that they dont always apply means you'll have to remember that.

GiGs said: Thats an improvement at least! Try again, I made another tweak to axioms. Sorry, no difference

I suspect something must be overriding the page's display and I might not be able to do anything. I've made on last attempt. This is what it looks like on firefox for me: If it works, I'll tone it down a bit so it isnt as close as the torg logo. Give it a go, and lets cross our fingers.

For those who've been asking about the missing damage button, I finally found the time to implement that. I havent added it to the community sheet because I havent finished styling it, but the functionality is done. In the settings popup, there's a new damage roll type option which lets you select from three options: Report Damage: this doesnt calculate damage, it just tells you the damage roll. Ask for Toughness: this is the old behaviour: it pops up a form asking you to enter the toughness, and it calculates the damage. Use Token Targetting: instead of asking for toughness, it prompts you to seleect a target token, and it gets the toughness from that target and calculates the damage. In addition, you always have a Bonus Die button printed with every damage roll (so you dont need a separate Coup de Grace button). When you click this buttonits behaviour is the same as Possibility/UP and depends on the setting you have set for that: If you are using the setting, use Tokens for roll tracking, it automatically uses the last roll, and adds the bonus dice to the total. If you have left settings at default, it popups a form asking you to enter the Last total (this is listed on the damage roll's output so its easy to find) In both cases, it recalculates the damage total. These options should cover all the bases. Now it's bedtime :)

I know I'm starting to sound like a cheer leader, GiGs, but all you've done on this sheet is beyond amazing and I, for one, am truly grateful. I am also very grateful to everyone who's done a lot more testing than I've been able to do and have brought all of the issues to light for GiGs and GM Matt to work through.&nbsp; TiaMaster and Michael D have been particularly effective in this way and it's helped make the new sheet so much better; thanks, fella's. I'm still unable to close the frame at the top of the current Character sheet.&nbsp; I've tried going out of Roll 20 and back in, switching from Firefox to Edge, and a full reboot, and it's made no difference. Now, GiGs and GM Matt, is there anything else the two of you can think of that really needs to be tested, yet? :)

Pauly da Leg-breaka said: I am also very grateful to everyone who's done a lot more testing than I've been able to do and have brought all of the issues to light for GiGs and GM Matt to work through.&nbsp; I appreciate you trying to make sure everyone gets credit, Pauly, but this version of the sheet is all GiGs. I used an old Travelers sheet to put together the original sheet for TE while it was in Kickstarter. I am not very good at coding/HTML, and can barely even understand CSS. I just wanted to be sure that we all had SOMETHING we could use when the game released. Since then, others have done all the work. My dream has always been that someone with a better coding foundation could get the sheet up to the point where it is now, and we have GiGs to thank for that.

I wish more small RPG companies had the resources to actually get good official sheets made here and on other VTTs. It can be a nightmare to get a game going when it's made by an author who abandons the system (as happened with Hackmaster) and you just have to hope maybe some day someone else will look at it. So thanks to everyone that put time and effort into this, GiGs especially! I look forward to the many hours of fixing my campaign with like 50 archetypes lol

Yes yes we all appreciate GiGs..he's the man.&nbsp; But dont let him think we have slacked off on him - he's got more tabs to do! I'm SURE he's anxious for more nitpicking, too.

GM Matt said: I appreciate you trying to make sure everyone gets credit, Pauly, but this version of the sheet is all GiGs. I used an old Travelers sheet to put together the original sheet for TE while it was in Kickstarter. I am not very good at coding/HTML, and can barely even understand CSS. I just wanted to be sure that we all had SOMETHING we could use when the game released. Since then, others have done all the work. My dream has always been that someone with a better coding foundation could get the sheet up to the point where it is now, and we have GiGs to thank for that. Don't sell yourself short.&nbsp; You figured out how to do some things that made Torg possible to play, here, for a LOT of us.&nbsp; Just because you started with someone else's foundations -and I have run Traveler, before, and that system has little resemblance to Torg- doesn't take away how you were able to figure out the dice working.&nbsp; I have very similar experience in coding/HTML, CSS, Java Script, etc., and I did not have the mind to even know where to start to figure it out.&nbsp; Your ability and willingness to work with GiGs on several of the items, here -and keep in mind I've been reading and participating with this conversation since day one (pun intended, LOL)-, have most definitely helped him to bring this sheet along.&nbsp; You're right, GiGs has done 99.95% of the update work, here, but he requested, and has received in droves, that other .05% that helped bring it to fruition; at the very least, the sheet would be another couple to few weeks in production, I think, otherwise. TiaMaster said: Yes yes we all appreciate GiGs..he's the man.&nbsp; But dont let him think we have slacked off on him - he's got more tabs to do! I'm SURE he's anxious for more nitpicking, too. ROFLMAO... damn, TiaMaster, LOL.&nbsp; I intend to be here to aid with those other tabs, as well.&nbsp; My big love is not in the statistics, characteristics, or abilities, but in the forthcoming tabs: Story, Threat, and Adventure.&nbsp; So, yes, I'm not giving premature thanks, just enough for the abilities tab.

Thanks everyone TiaMaster said: Yes yes we all appreciate GiGs..he's the man.&nbsp; But dont let him think we have slacked off on him - he's got more tabs to do! I'm SURE he's anxious for more nitpicking, too. haha, I do appreciate it. Though after I get tab 1 submitted, I'll be taking a well-deserved rest and finishing up some other projects that I've let languish while working on this. But I'll get back to them (probably sooner rather than later, as I run my own game and find I want them).

I have a question about Bonus Dice / Coup De Grace. First a preview pic. This is what it looks like after you make bonus die roll. Poor Dragon Warrior didnt roll well on his bonus die. The question: when you click the Bonus Dice button, would it be better to give a popup asking for a number of bonus dice, or just roll 1 bonus die? The latter is a bit quicker. But I suppose there are occasions where you spend more than one coup de grace card. Are there other occasions where you'd need to add more than one? (Remember the bonus dice gained for your initial Outstanding success have already been added in the initial roll).