[Torg Eternity] Sheet redesign thread

TiaMaster said: I don't believe the Modifier to the right of Weapon Name is being figured. The modifier next to weapon name should be working, but the one next to damage wasn't. Is that the one you meant?

Waiting on dinner.  Imported another character.  Issues in order: 1. Attributes did not come over.    2. The skills that get "added" in the old character sheet don't come over. (See Reality & Stealth)    3. Wound limit did transfer, but shock limit did not.   4. I made up some numbers for possibilities, they did not transfer.  Though presumably you would get the new character sheet when you start a new game and select it ... ??? ??? so maybe not a big deal?   

Thats very thorough testing, shame it isnt needed, lol. Remember, I said earlier, the transferred sheets wont look right.  When you import a character, you aren't importing it for your use. You are importing it for me - so i have some characters to test the versioning script on. I need to test that characters can be converted probably to the new sheet's data model.  That's the whole purpose I made this campaign available before its fully complete - so i could get some imported characters to test with. Let me refer you back to this earlier post : GiGs  said: For everyone: here's  call for help; I have the first draft of my versioning script written and I need to test it. It would help a lot if I had some completed characters to try out. I've created a campaign below - it does NOT have the versioning script installed. But if you import some characters, and add IMPORT to their name (so i can tell which ones you've imported), I'll be able to export them to my own files to test them.  Also, anyone who wants to jump in and make characters from scratch,  Here's the test campaign. Note that the sheet is not  quite  complete. There's a glitch with the settings button appearance in firefox, I havent added the active defence / raw bonus roll buttons yet, and a few other minor things. But you can try it out and see what I've missed, and what needs explaining. I thought I'd pointed out in that post that characters wouldn't appear properly till after they'd been versioned. I guess I forgot to mention that. Some sections (like perks and gear, and most of the old fixed skills, those not in the added section) use the same attributes so will appear normally. Most of the rest will need the version script to update them.

Sorry - I deleted that part of my post as I just read where you said it was because there was no importer yet. I knew you were going to have the first Notes field output - just thought I'd remind you. Active Defense is very important - I hope its in the first version of the sheet. I just entered Situational Awareness as a perk and it was not able to fit. I'll check that its not something I did or didn't do. It's not. Both the Skill roll modifier is not working AND the damage modifier isn't working.

Active Defence (and/or a Multi-Action Bonus) buttons, and the Notes field will be in the first release. I agree they are essential. Good find on Situational Awareness - I thought I'd tested the longest names I could find. That one clearly doesnt fit. I'll make it a little wider. Also some of the text boxes are using font that is slightly too large compared to others - i just fixed that in my design campaign.

I notice the Fatigue button is not working, and I am wondering what its for anyway. Wait - okay its because the shock field isnt player editable. What do I have to do to get the latest version of the sheet? simply reload or do i hafta restart the game?

TiaMaster said: I notice the Fatigue button is not working, and I am wondering what its for anyway. The fatigue button is for when you have armour that has a fatigue cost. It shows the total fatigue you suffer when you get that result in initiative, and lets you click it to add immediately to shock suffered. It wont do anything if you arent wearing armour with a fatigue cost. Maybe it should show the standard 2 fatigue, and add the armour cost to it. What do you think?

Fatigue/Backlash is so fluid that I might just recommend not using that field at all, and instead just letting the player just use the Shock buttons.  Can you use that space for something else? If you really like it then prolly don't add the standard two fatigue. There are Perks that reduce Backlash shock taken, and I have a house Perk that allows you to reduce Fatigue. I'm sure something similar will be officially added eventually.

You might be right. Though isnt backlash different?

Sorry...either I missed that post earlier, or I forgot.  Then there you go, there is an imported character sheet to use.  IF you need others I have lots, just let me know, otherwise I'll just leave you to that part. Backlash causes shock for failing a spell, miracle, or psi power.  There are perks that reduce it.  So it is like fatigue in that it is a standard 2 shock, but it occurs when you fail a skill check and is divorced from the conflict line on the drama deck.

There is fatigue on the drama deck (everybody takes 2 shock) and there is armor fatigue (wearing bulky armor adds extra shock).  So...everybody takes 2 shock when fatigue comes up on the drama deck, some may take more depending on the armor they are wearing.  And, as stated earlier, there are some perks (homebrew) that allow characters to reduce shock taken from fatigue.   Probably better to just have the players add any shock taken when a fatigue result comes up manually.  We do it as housecleaning at the start of the heroes turn before anybody takes any actions.  My Paladin type character gets 4, the elf mage gets 1, everybody else gets 2.

I also noticed wounded only goes to 3.  The typical wound limit is 3 (meaning at 3 you are ok, at 4 you are KO'd and have to test for defeat...and maybe die).  However, there are perks that can increase your would limit.  And some "villains" like Giants and what not can have more (i've seen a limit up to 5).  May not want to set a cap on the upper limit and probably need to make the limit player editable.  Regardless, the wound status should be able to become 1 higher than limit (for those that are over their limit and testing for defeat)???  I mean yes, if you test and make it you are at the limit and KO'd, so technically only have to allow the wound status to go to the limit.  I'm just suggesting that this way there is a marker so you know...hey....john is over limit...he needs to test and not that he is at his limit.

Michael D. said: There is fatigue on the drama deck (everybody takes 2 shock) and there is armor fatigue (wearing bulky armor adds extra shock).  So...everybody takes 2 shock when fatigue comes up on the drama deck, some may take more depending on the armor they are wearing.  And, as stated earlier, there are some perks (homebrew) that allow characters to reduce shock taken from fatigue.   Probably better to just have the players add any shock taken when a fatigue result comes up manually.  We do it as housecleaning at the start of the heroes turn before anybody takes any actions.  My Paladin type character gets 4, the elf mage gets 1, everybody else gets 2. Technically Fatigue is taken at the END of your turn, so players could act then get KOed at the end of the turn.  EDIT: Your gonna ask me to show in the rules where this is and then I will be flummoxed.  I will look for it tomorrow. Yeah Backlash is different but if you had that Fatigue button it would be convenient to just press it to take backlash - if it wasnt so fluid.

I like that you can pick "other" for a cosm and put in your own values.  That is great for pocket realm and homebrews.  That is so cool!

Agreed, a backlash button that allowed you to take fatigue would be cool.  Agreed it is so fluid with so many different sources and potentially different values that not really workable without making a button for each type. And yes, you are correct, technically Fatigue is taken at the END, however, we kept forgetting to do it for everybody (heroes and villains).  So, house rule, it occurs at the beginning, we do it as housekeeping, and those that are knocked out act anyway, but this way we don't forget.  Villains work the same way here for the same reason, they take shock, all the mooks get knocked out, they act anyway, end of combat everybody pick up your cards.  

Nitpick: Can you get rid of the word Level at Clearance Level, so that you have room to put some spaces after "Axioms:"?

I also notice I can edit my move (walking) speed, but not the run speed.  Not sure if that was intended.   Which makes me think about some of the published villains.  While "heroes" walk and run speeds are tied to their Dexterity, there are some published villains that are different.  Some shambling monsters that have a high Dex, but have slower movement speeds (walk or run or both), and some large monsters that have increased speeds because their strides are so long (their Dex is only an 8, but they walk 12).   Also, some magic items (and I think spells, I'd have to go look) can increase players movement (I'm recalling some boots that were part of the recent Aysle expansion).   Perhaps the speed values need a modifier option...or...both become editable???????

Michael D. said: Agreed, a backlash button that allowed you to take fatigue would be cool.  Agreed it is so fluid with so many different sources and potentially different values that not really workable without making a button for each type. And yes, you are correct, technically Fatigue is taken at the END, however, we kept forgetting to do it for everybody (heroes and villains).  So, house rule, it occurs at the beginning, we do it as housekeeping, and those that are knocked out act anyway, but this way we don't forget.  Villains work the same way here for the same reason, they take shock, all the mooks get knocked out, they act anyway, end of combat everybody pick up your cards.   I think I will do that too.

Ohh...if you click on "derived ratings" a modifier window pops up and lets you add a modifier to each of the values.  Naturally I find that after I post....EXCELLENT!  Previous comment recalled and rejected.  Ignore me.  Move on.

Michael D. said: I also notice I can edit my move (walking) speed, but not the run speed.  Not sure if that was intended.   Which makes me think about some of the published villains.  While "heroes" walk and run speeds are tied to their Dexterity, there are some published villains that are different.  Some shambling monsters that have a high Dex, but have slower movement speeds (walk or run or both), and some large monsters that have increased speeds because their strides are so long (their Dex is only an 8, but they walk 12).   Also, some magic items (and I think spells, I'd have to go look) can increase players movement (I'm recalling some boots that were part of the recent Aysle expansion).   Perhaps the speed values need a modifier option...or...both become editable??????? The Run box needs to be added to the list of things that can be modified. I was just editing a monster today that had a higher run speed than normal.

Michael D. said: I also noticed wounded only goes to 3.   If you click the Derived Abilities heading, you get a popup that lets you adjust your max wounds, shock, move, and toughness. If you have more than 3 max wounds, the sidebar wounds will show a max of 3 (because thats the penalty to actions) while the wound box in the derived ability section can go up to your max. I never considered wounds going above that. Do you actually record excess wounds? I guess you do, since they still have to be healed. Michael D. said: I like that you can pick "other" for a cosm and put in your own values.  That is great for pocket realm and homebrews.  That is so cool! Yes, that's one of the reasons I added the customs skill section too, for people using homebrews and different skill lists. I'm glad you like it. TiaMaster said: Nitpick: Can you get rid of the word Level at Clearance Level, so that you have room to put some spaces after "Axioms:"? There are some spaces after Axioms. Does it look cramped on yours? Which browser are you using? Browsers often display things differently, so i may be seeing a different view to you, and may need to adjust for your browser. Michael D. said: I also notice I can edit my move (walking) speed, but not the run speed.  Not sure if that was intended.   Which makes me think about some of the published villains.  While "heroes" walk and run speeds are tied to their Dexterity, there are some published villains that are different.  Some shambling monsters that have a high Dex, but have slower movement speeds (walk or run or both), and some large monsters that have increased speeds because their strides are so long (their Dex is only an 8, but they walk 12).   Also, some magic items (and I think spells, I'd have to go look) can increase players movement (I'm recalling some boots that were part of the recent Aysle expansion).   Perhaps the speed values need a modifier option...or...both become editable??????? As noted above you can modify the base Move speed. Are there things which have a run different from Move x3? It would be easy enough to add a Run modifier too along with the Move one if its needed. Also this is one of the reasons for the Threat tab, to have creatures who dont follow the same rules as players for things like move rate.

Hehe, I should always refresh before posting in a fast moving thread.

Michael D. said: Sorry...either I missed that post earlier, or I forgot.  Then there you go, there is an imported character sheet to use.  IF you need others I have lots, just let me know, otherwise I'll just leave you to that part. I havent checked what character you posted yet, but more is always good. ideally characters with a range of filled out powers and weapons would make good tests.

Another suggestion.  I realize they are coming at you fast.  I don't want you to think I'm complaining, because I REALLY LIKE THIS.  But if I don't get them out as I think of them I'll forget later.  It occurs to me that I'm having a bit of a hard time because some headers (like possibilities and other) are clickable links that pop up windows with additional detail, where others are not.  So, I'm just poking all over the sheet, which is fine for now, but may not be very user friendly later.  Perhaps in the final version things that can be clicked on to access additional detail are a different font color (say blue for sake of argument) while others that will make rolls (like the name of a weapon for making an attack with that weapon) are say green...I realize that's a fit and finish at the end thing and not on the radar right now.  Just stick it on the bottom of the pile.

GiGs said: Michael D. said: Sorry...either I missed that post earlier, or I forgot.  Then there you go, there is an imported character sheet to use.  IF you need others I have lots, just let me know, otherwise I'll just leave you to that part. I havent checked what character you posted yet, but more is always good. ideally characters with a range of filled out powers and weapons would make good tests. Ok.  Let me go see what I can find.  I'll go digging through my monster vault and old players and shoot you over a half a dozen at least with a variety of skills, abilities, powers, etc.  I can get you psi, mages, priests, etc in volume  

Oh COOL!  I just found that I can add a power and link it to ANY SKILL in the list, its a drop down menu!  That is EXCELLENT for other home brew powers that we weren't able to deal with before.  The only comment I have is if I add a custom skill, I can't link a power to that custom skill.  Is that possible to do?  Not a deal breaker for me if it's not, but if it is that would be so awesome.  

GiGs said: If you click the Derived Abilities heading, you get a popup that lets you adjust your max wounds, shock, move, and toughness. If you have more than 3 max wounds, the sidebar wounds will show a max of 3 (because thats the penalty to actions) while the wound box in the derived ability section can go up to your max. I never considered wounds going above that. Do you actually record excess wounds? I guess you do, since they still have to be healed. u do NOT record extra wounds - but there are Perks that allow you to take MORE than three wounds. (still only a maximum of -3) TiaMaster said: Nitpick: Can you get rid of the word Level at Clearance Level, so that you have room to put some spaces after "Axioms:"? There are some spaces after Axioms. Does it look cramped on yours? Which browser are you using? Browsers often display things differently, so i may be seeing a different view to you, and may need to adjust for your browser. I am using Chrome and yes it looks like "Axioms:Magic". I am unable to import another character. Does this sound right? Rather, it says it imported but in the game it is not there. I have reloaded and exited and relaunched.

No, you don't wind up with more wounds than your limit.  We use the current ability to "exceed" wounds as an identifier that heroes need to test for defeat or that villains are dead.  When you exceed the limit a + icon is added to the bar above the token.  If you pass the test for defeat you get set back to you limit and are KO'd.  If you fail, you are dead (doesn't really matter any more)

Michael D.  said: Another suggestion.  I realize they are coming at you fast.  I don't want you to think I'm complaining, because I REALLY LIKE THIS.  I understand - when i get excited about something, I can end up offering a lot of suggestions and it can look like criticism, so dont worry, i understand. Regarding the headers: yes, I agree thats an issue. It's the main reason I added the settings option, "show all hidden tabs" - check top right settings wheel. i do agree some visual indicator should be added. Michael D. said: Oh COOL!  I just found that I can add a power and link it to ANY SKILL in the list, its a drop down menu!  That is EXCELLENT for other home brew powers that we weren't able to deal with before.  The only comment I have is if I add a custom skill, I can't link a power to that custom skill.  Is that possible to do?  Not a deal breaker for me if it's not, but if it is that would be so awesome.   Its not possible in roll20 to have the dropdown show skills you add in a repeating section unfortunately. I'd love to add that feature, but we are limited to what we can do in roll20. Some things that would be easy elsewhere ion the web are just impossible on roll20 because of the security model they use (which is understandable - they have to be very careful). I should add a "Custom" option at the bottom of that list, which lets you enter your own number. You wont be able to link it to a skill in the customs skill list, but you'll be able to manually enter its value. But thats for later, better to get the sheet working for those using the official rules first :) TiaMaster said: I am using Chrome and yes it looks like "Axioms:Magic". I am unable to import another character. Does this sound right? Rather, it says it imported but in the game it is not there. I have reloaded and exited and relaunched. You should be able to import another character, thogh I've never used the vault. Maybe there's a limit on one character per player? I'll investigate over the weekend. Regarding the axioms - I'm using Chrome, too, so that's weird. Here's what it looks like at my end. Does it look different for you?

I can't figure why I cannot export in another character. On the vault screen it does say export character s. Maybe it's this: " Characters can be imported from any game. Exporting is based on the game's Vault Access Level."

TiaMaster said: I can't figure why I cannot export in another character. On the vault screen it does say export character s. Maybe it's this: " Characters can be imported from any game. Exporting is based on the game's Vault Access Level." I have no idea why its displaying that way for you. I just double-checked. Are you running any browser extensions that change roll20's display?Like stylus, stylish, tampermonkey, or VTTES? Regarding the vault: If the campaign creator is Pro, they can activate the highest vault access level, which I've done. So if you have the characters exported from another game, you should be able to import them.  Unless there's a 1 character limit per player. I dont know why that would be, its not mentioned in the  vault page. I'll do some digging.

Okay, so I didn't wanna tell you this, but yes, I am running Stylus. But dammit why would it change that one thing. When you get a second can you delete Bel Partha so I can see if I can import after that? After reading all the docs on the Vault, it says characters everywhere, not character.  I know I am not doing anything wrong, as I am doing the same as I did for the first character. Also, it SAYS 'successfully exported character'. Its just when i go back into the Testbed, its not there. I have now done all I can do to get this to work. Exited all games, reimported character, remade character, copied character, tried a different character...

LOL. OKAY...so as soon as Zoula logged on to the testbed, the character list refreshed and the character was there.

I've deleted Bel Partha. Also found there were 5 characters by the name of Zenon something, which were not owned by anyone. So it looks like someone tried to import those but something went wrong. I set one of them to editable by everyone, in case it wasnt you but someone else who imported that one. Regarding stylus: you can disable it temporarily, refresh, and see if it fixes the display. It might not be Stylus after all (but it does seem likely).

TiaMaster said: LOL. OKAY...so as soon as Zoula logged on to the testbed, the character list refreshed and the character was there. That was more likely my doing :) see my previous reply.

I imported a fresh Alpha from my archetypes frontpage and an experienced Beta character. Hope the mass of data is helpful. Kind of interesting just seeing the different way everyone is making their tokens on the page heh.

Thanks :)  I havent had time to check that out, just jumping in and out. I'll have a proper look at them when i get a chance :)

GiGs said: I've deleted Bel Partha. Also found there were 5 characters by the name of Zenon something, which were not owned by anyone. So it looks like someone tried to import those but something went wrong. I set one of them to editable by everyone, in case it wasnt you but someone else who imported that one. Regarding stylus: you can disable it temporarily, refresh, and see if it fixes the display. It might not be Stylus after all (but it does seem likely). Yeah those are all me, I'm thinking the Vault isnt as reliable as we would like. Regarding the number to the right of the applicable skill in the Weapons section - I don't think you need it with already having the Mod section in the Skills list.

TiaMaster said: Yeah those are all me, I'm thinking the Vault isnt as reliable as we would like. Regarding the number to the right of the applicable skill in the Weapons section - I don't think you need it with already having the Mod section in the Skills list. Regarding the vault: that would not surprise me. I think its very likely that GMs will give players weapons or things that trigger powers with a bonus at some point. This is for bonuses that apply just to that specific attack, not to every use of that skill.

GiGs said: TiaMaster said: Yeah those are all me, I'm thinking the Vault isnt as reliable as we would like. Regarding the number to the right of the applicable skill in the Weapons section - I don't think you need it with already having the Mod section in the Skills list. Regarding the vault: that would not surprise me. I think its very likely that GMs will give players weapons or things that trigger powers with a bonus at some point. This is for bonuses that apply just to that specific attack, not to every use of that skill. But then don't you have the mods beside the weapon name and the damage for that? My sheet is ALL kinds of screwing up now, take a look in the Testbed when you get a chance. Nitpick: The Weapons and Powers names are in bold. none of the other lists are like that. 

TiaMaster said: GiGs said: TiaMaster said: Yeah those are all me, I'm thinking the Vault isnt as reliable as we would like. Regarding the number to the right of the applicable skill in the Weapons section - I don't think you need it with already having the Mod section in the Skills list. Regarding the vault: that would not surprise me. I think its very likely that GMs will give players weapons or things that trigger powers with a bonus at some point. This is for bonuses that apply just to that specific attack, not to every use of that skill. But then don't you have the mods beside the weapon name and the damage for that? My sheet is ALL kinds of screwing up now, take a look in the Testbed when you get a chance. Nitpick: The Weapons and Powers names are in bold. none of the other lists are like that.  Oh, THAT box. That one is for powers which have a minimum skill, which you enter there. It's kind of unnecessary on the character sheet, and i may remove it, but in the design copy there is a tooltip that tells you what it is for now. Is the sheet thats screwing up one you've imported or one you created in the testbed? Which character?

I imported the character then finished it in the Testbed. You can't miss all the errors for Zenon.

GiGs, is there anything else you can think of that might need to be tested, anything you're looking to find out? As I told you I intended to make more Characters, but with the additional testers that have shown up, I don't want to clutter up the list and perform anything redundant.

TiaMaster said: I imported the character then finished it in the Testbed. You can't miss all the errors for Zenon. The characters you import, you should leave completely alone. They wont work right on the new sheet till the version script process them. The reason for importing them is so i can test my script to fix them. If you alter them, the sheet data has changed and its not a good test any more.

Pauly da Leg-breaka said: GiGs, is there anything else you can think of that might need to be tested, anything you're looking to find out? As I told you I intended to make more Characters, but with the additional testers that have shown up, I don't want to clutter up the list and perform anything redundant. Feel free to make any characters you like, and import as many as you like. But name them so I can tell which ones have been imported. I just need to export out the imported characters, so i can test them in my design version of the campaign.

Okay I tried to Export to your Testbed again and it was a no go. Can you delete Zenon so I can get this character in and mark it as an import?

Dont worry, I had 4 copies of the character because it was importing them, but for some reason failing at the point it tried to assign ownership permissions. So it was telling you it had failed, because it hadnt completed fully.

To be clear, it never fails, it always says Character exported successfully.  I guess as you said it just fails at the assign level. But that doesn't help me get my characters in there.

It seems like your characters are being imported - they are visible to me. But since permissions aren't being set, you cant see them. So if there's any you want to import, just import them (dont try multiple times) and post here which named characters you imported. Next time I log in I;ll grab them and set permissions so you can see them.