[Torg Eternity] Sheet redesign thread

Are there Torg Eternity players on the forum? I've started redesigning the sheet in the repository to add some functionality and make it look prettier. When i finish it and upload, there'll be no data loss.

For the record, the current sheet looks like this:

It's perfectly functional, but a bit basic.

My work is in early stages, but this is what it looks like right now:

Ignore the weapons section at the right - that's obviously not finished. (Though it'll combine both attack powers and weapons, and have the ability to click to open an expanded details section for each item, letting you fill in complex powers.)

Also the tab bar will be changing.

Note that the skill and ability names are buttons-  click them to make your roll.

I've done away with the repeating section for skills. Instead I've taken inspiration from Coal Powered Puppet, and added a selection screen when you cn choose which skills from the master list get displayed:

Simply click the Other skills heading and get that popup, pick which skill you want to add or remove, and click the Other title again to remove the popup.

I have a new design for the rolltemplate. The old template was a great achievement - in that it told you what success level you got (fail, standard, good, amazing) but didnt tell you the exact result which made it tricky when you had modifiers to apply. It also didnt account for rolls above 50, which while rare, do happen. It was also complicated to work with UP and Possibilities, requiring a lot of manual calculation (especially if you're doing a multi-action)

The new template doesnt you for the difficulty any more, instead it just reports the exact total you rolled. It works for all skill levels and all rolls, and works fine with possibilities and UP rolls. I'll also add a button to generate just a skill-less roll total that works with possibilities/UP rolls, for when doing multi-actions.

I dont have a picture of its output yet because i havent done the CSS, but it works.

Also replaced all autocalc fields with sheet workers.

that looks great. we had some struggle managing all the cards as well, but got through it.

Thanks :)

I havent played it on roll20 yet but I do anticipate the cards handling part might be a bit tricky. Any tips?

You are welcome to log into my game, where I handle the cards in two different fashions.

The first one is done...well you would have to log in to see.

The second way is by using a separator card. It just depends on your preference.

You should still have the link to my game, but if not i will PM you. Come by and I can give you GM.

I applaud the ability to show as many/all of the skills instead of a small curated selection.

One of the biggest things for me would be a way to auto-include certain modifiers to defense. Certain cyberware or other effects can change say dodge defense but not other tests for it. Also the way the rolls work on Roll20 I find that bonuses/penalties are often easier to assign as changes to the DN. 

For example when shooting at a Large target with a dodge of 10 normal in real life you'd roll, and add 2 to your total compared to 10, but I've found it's waaaaay quicker and easier to just have the player input the DN as 8. As such, I'd find it so nice if there was just a checkbox to make a target Small/Large/Very Large and modify the defense at a glance.

Don't forget to include heavy weapons as one of the possible attack skills for the weapons section.

I don't know how feasible a re-work of the Armor section is, but I think Fatigue and Max Dex would probably be more important values to track than Axiom.

Zoula said:

I applaud the ability to show as many/all of the skills instead of a small curated selection.

One of the biggest things for me would be a way to auto-include certain modifiers to defense. Certain cyberware or other effects can change say dodge defense but not other tests for it. Also the way the rolls work on Roll20 I find that bonuses/penalties are often easier to assign as changes to the DN. 

For example when shooting at a Large target with a dodge of 10 normal in real life you'd roll, and add 2 to your total compared to 10, but I've found it's waaaaay quicker and easier to just have the player input the DN as 8. As such, I'd find it so nice if there was just a checkbox to make a target Small/Large/Very Large and modify the defense at a glance.

Don't forget to include heavy weapons as one of the possible attack skills for the weapons section.

I don't know how feasible a re-work of the Armor section is, but I think Fatigue and Max Dex would probably be more important values to track than Axiom.

The current sheet asks you to enter defence/DN when making the roll, so it can calculate the quality of success. My rolltemplate reports the actual result, so you don't need to enter DN. It works the same way as, say, the D&D sheet works (and the way it works in practice at the face-to-face table): you make your attack roll, and the chat announces the result, then the target or GM declares if you have hit or not.

I'll likely create an API script that can handle automatic targeting and calculating effect, and more complex situations like multi-actions, but that wont be default on the sheet because its only available to Pro users.

The idea of handling defence modifiers: thats worth considering, if only for display purposes. It might not make it into the first draft of the sheet. That does raise a question:

The official printed character sheets have a defence section which shows 

Defence

Dodge

Melee

Unarmed

And the community roll20 sheet has the same section. Is this actually needed on roll20, when the skills are right there (and you can link them to macros and report them easily)? I'm currently planning on including them, but wondering if its really needed.

You mention modifiers that apply specifically to dodge, so thats a good reason to include it. Are there many of those, and are there modifiers to other defences?

Also there's another custom sheet, which expands the defences section to include the 4 interaction skills and willpower, which makes sense because they are often defences. Are there perks or powers that increase those defences?

Zoula said:

Don't forget to include heavy weapons as one of the possible attack skills for the weapons section.

I don't know how feasible a re-work of the Armor section is, but I think Fatigue and Max Dex would probably be more important values to track than Axiom.

Thats a good idea on heavy weapons. I had it set to show in the other skills section; i've just tweaked things so it to appears in the combat section.

The armour section will include Fatigue and Max Dex, as well as axiom. It'll probably be a repeating section, so you can list more than two armours, with a checkbox that lets you select which you are wearing (along with a sheet worker to calculate current max dex and max armour adds from those actually worn).

I guess I should ask: are there any things you think should be included that aren't in the current se=heet?

Most of the extra tabs arent going to be needed in the rewrite, but I'm going to have one modelled on the back of the printed sheet which has space for some descriptive stuff (description, moment of crisis, record of advancement spending, maybe travel record?, etc).

I dont know if I'll have it in the first draft, but I plan to have a tab for a condensed sheet for creatures, too.

Loving the new look, and think the idea of picking what skills display is super!

I think the defenses are only there to be clear when you have done an Active Defense, and apply the mod, then it shows up on all the defenses.  Its not needed since the skills are presented on the sheet already (but it did make it easy to scan through and provide the defense).

Zoula's mention of situations where you get a defence modifier, but not a modifier to the underlying skill, might be a good reason to keep the defence section. So you can apply short-term (but longer than a single roll) modifiers, to say, your Dodge defence without having to modify your dodge stat.

Like shields.

Progress Report - front page is nearly finished. Here's what an empty sheet currently looks like

The weapons and powers section headings will change and that top right sidebar needs creating, but everything else on there is complete (except fdor adding a "Worn" checkbox for armour).

Every item in a repeating section has a checkbox at the right side, like so    

which you can click to get a bigger textbox to store expanded info on each item if needed, whether its armour, equipment, or perks. The weapon section has a much richer section, to cope with magic, miracles, and so on.

Some information may seem missing (but dont forget that sidebar to be added), and some of it will be stored in hidden areas like the skills selection dropdown.

Is there anything I have overloocked, that you think should definitely be included?

Nice looking sheet GiGs!

Am I not seeing a "spend possibility" or "Up" spot? Or is that an option after a roll is made?

If we have the apply the results of our rolls ourselves in this version perhaps in that "something goes here" spot the damage result chart could be listed? Or even a vertical version of the Bonus Chart?

This sheet will calculate the bonus for you perfectly, so no need to put the bonus on the sheet. and damage will be calculated too, as it is now.

There will be possibility and UP buttons on the rolltemplate. Maybe there should be buttons for those on the character sheet too. i do have a space for Active Defence / Multi-Action / Raw Bonus, i can add those to it,

By the way that top right empty sidebar space now looks like this:

I originally planned to have vertically-rotated text, like it does on the printed character sheet, but it didnt look that great and didnt use the space well. 

I think this looks good, and the shock and wounded buttons work with the shock / wounds section elsewhere on the sheet. 

The cosms title there opens a popup where you can record cosm-specific possibilities. Most characters dont have any, so dont need to take up a large chunk of character sheet space.

Looking good. Why does Shock and Wounds have two dedicated spots on the sheet?

I love the work that GM Matt did, originally, but I'm glad you're working things up, better.  The existing sheet does a LOT to automate the game, but what you're doing is going to make things so much easier.  Thank you.

Now to my recommendations... if we're still getting a damage descriptor, instead of it stopping at telling us what our roll total is, I'd like chat to go a bit further with a descriptor when the damage result is 6+ points below, like "No damage done".  I know it might seem inane or unnecessary to add it, but trust me when I tell you the descriptor would be nice to have.

You asked about action modifiers could be done, such as size modifiers, shotgun blasts, movement, etc.  When the action window comes up you're asked for the difficulty number, which you've already explained will be taken care of by the sheet, instead, yes?  Perhaps, instead of difficulty number, the same box comes up for the GM to select bonuses and penalties, including aiming and the like.

Armor and Toughness are dealt with in a silly manner by USIs rules; sorry, but it's true.  Toughness is equal to Strength, so it doesn't need to be displayed, at all, as far as I'm concerned.  Unless, of course, there are Perks to add to Toughness, and then it needs to be shown.  Armor needs to be added to it, of course, but if you're building in a "worn" check box -you may want one for body, one for head, leggings, etc., though I don't think you really need to go beyond head, body, and shield.

You have Possibilities listed for that side-bar on the upper-right.  Is it possible to build the title into a button and make it subtract one Possibility from the entry window, below?

You also mentioned a back-side, as it were, another tab, for the sheet.  This is only a request, and I'm uncertain how important others could see it being, but would it be possible to add in an Adventure Log, where the Player, or the GM for all the Players who participated in the adventure, could add the name of the adventure and allow the Player to do a write-up of what they remember of the game.  The way cards are dealt could give a clue to how to handle the first part... the GM could choose the names of those who participated, hit submit, and it adds a space for the Player to do their write-up.

Tips on tricky card play... the design Roll 20 has is strictly for table-play cards (four suits, 52 cards).  Can you build larger decks?  Yes, and I have, and they're working, but it's extremely limited.  The control property of each card should be assigned when the card goes out.  A Player should be able to discard out of their hand, not be required to move it to the desktop for GM retrieval.  A Player should maintain control of the card so they can put it back in their hand, if they wish, or release it to the tabletop or to the discard pile.  A Player should be able to show the GM the card, at full size, either in their hand or strictly with the GM (to ask what the card is used for and/or ask approval to use it) or one or more Players, at their choosing, and maintain control of their card until they can either give that card to another Player, arrange for a trade, put it on the VTT, retrieve or discard it.  Finally, it would be nice if, instead of being allowed to display "All" or "By Deck", allow for GMs to add various card decks and their buttons to the Card Display; this would allow each Player to shuffle a card from their hand to their pool, and all new cards would go to their hand.

Right now, all cards go to the hand, and that's not the wrong or bad place for it to go, but each GM has to create a card to separate the Hand from the Pool, which is a rather important distinction.  In fact, I have to re-develop my Hand/Pool separator card so the Pool goes to the left of the card, the hand to the right, because new cards go to the bottom of the hand, or to the right.

Other than that, the decks and the cards are imminently easy to use.

If there's anything else I can do, I will be happy to help.  I love Torg Eternity in a way few can fathom, so if there's a way I can help, I'm all over it.

Pauly da Leg-breaka said:
I love the work that GM Matt did, originally, but I'm glad you're working things up, better.  The existing sheet does a LOT to automate the game, but what you're doing is going to make things so much easier.  Thank you.

Thanks! I agree the old sheet - indeed any sheet on the repository - is a great achievement, and we should be grateful for the work of those who came before us.

You asked about action modifiers could be done, such as size modifiers, shotgun blasts, movement, etc.  When the action window comes up you're asked for the difficulty number, which you've already explained will be taken care of by the sheet, instead, yes?  Perhaps, instead of difficulty number, the same box comes up for the GM to select bonuses and penalties, including aiming and the like.

Yes, instead of asking for difficulty, the roll macro asks for whatever modifiers apply and adds them to the final total.

if we're still getting a damage descriptor, instead of it stopping at telling us what our roll total is, I'd like chat to go a bit further with a descriptor when the damage result is 6+ points below, like "No damage done".  I know it might seem inane or unnecessary to add it, but trust me when I tell you the descriptor would be nice to have.

I agree this is a good thing to have.

Armor and Toughness are dealt with in a silly manner by USIs rules; sorry, but it's true.  Toughness is equal to Strength, so it doesn't need to be displayed, at all, as far as I'm concerned.  Unless, of course, there are Perks to add to Toughness, and then it needs to be shown.  Armor needs to be added to it, of course, but if you're building in a "worn" check box -you may want one for body, one for head, leggings, etc., though I don't think you really need to go beyond head, body, and shield.

That's a good point - the sheet as i have it currently shows Toughness as Toughness + Armour (plus any modifiers you might have). I forgot you can avoid the armour, so an unarmed and with-armour toughness might be needed. It hink its worthwhile having toughness separate from Strength even without armour, because there might be perks which add a bonus to toughness independently of strength (if not now, maybe later). And there are powers which increase strength without increasing toughness. So there are enough situations where having them separate makes sense.

The worn checkbox was intended to handle torg's rules on stacking armour, and allow you to keep multiple armours including those you dont currently wear. The standard rule is you use the best armour bonus and lowest max dex of those you are wearing, and my sheet worker needs to be able to identify which armor is worn to know which armours to check. That's why the worn checkbox exists.

A location/coverage box isnt needed for the sheet to work properly, but it might still be nice to have.

You have Possibilities listed for that side-bar on the upper-right.  Is it possible to build the title into a button and make it subtract one Possibility from the entry window, below?

See those +/- buttons next to them? They let you add or subtract one from each. Is that what you're asking?

In the case of stymied/vulnerable, they increase or decrease the penalty step (0, -2, -4). For Wounds /Shock, you have the place below stats where you record your maximums, and shows current values; in this top right sidebar you can increment them one by one - and will show KO when you take too much shock, and for wounds, the number shown is the injury penalty, so if you can take more than 3 wounds, the penalty still stays at -3 (the maximum in the rules). 

It also doesnt matter whether you change the current scores below the stats section, or use the buttons in the right: each will update the other. So you can link wounds and shock to a token bar, and these will each update properly.

You also mentioned a back-side, as it were, another tab, for the sheet.  This is only a request, and I'm uncertain how important others could see it being, but would it be possible to add in an Adventure Log, where the Player, or the GM for all the Players who participated in the adventure, could add the name of the adventure and allow the Player to do a write-up of what they remember of the game.  The way cards are dealt could give a clue to how to handle the first part... the GM could choose the names of those who participated, hit submit, and it adds a space for the Player to do their write-up.

I'm basing the layout on the Character Journals supplement, where the back looks like this:

All of those sections are too big for the digital roll20 sheet, especially given they'll mostly be repeating sections. So I;m keen to hear suggestions of other things that can go there. Having an adventure log is a good idea. Any suggestions for other things players might want to track?

I just realised I'll need to tweak the skill list since the Language skill can be taken multiple times. Are there any other skills like that?

David R. said:

This looks amazing! Now all I have to do is find time and a group to play TorgE with. 

Thanks :) and good luck with that! I've wanted to play literally for decades (I never got to play the original, just the spinoff masterbook/shatterzone games), and am looking forward to finally giving this version a go soon.

There are definitely things that add to Toughness that aren't armor. Perks, cyberware, monster abilities, etc

Hey!

This looks fantastic!

We're on our second TorgE campaign and have been getting plenty of use of the previous versions. We ended up finding a few ways to handle the cards and things like custom token markers to simplify play - I only just added my own card images for some of the boosters from Aysle. 

Mike A. said:

- I only just added my own card images for some of the boosters from Aysle. 

There are boosters from Aysle available?

GiGs I like the old sheets page for Powers because of how much information it can handle.

Will the Weapons and Powers repeating section handle this as well?

TiaMaster said:

GiGs I like the old sheets page for Powers because of how much information it can handle.

Will the Weapons and Powers repeating section handle this as well?

This is what it looks like at the moment. The checkbox at the right side expands the box to reveal a lot of extra info.

I will probably add the Ordinary/Good/Outstanding boxes in the empty space at the bottom (taking up half the width, maybe, leaving the rest of for general notes and description). I noticed some powers have two axiom limits, so i included two entries for those. The Difficulty box lets you pick a difficulty (DN 6, 8, 10, etc), or one of the skill-based options, or just set it as a standard attack.

I think i include everything on the old sheet. 

That actually looks great.  Another thing I liked was how the small Notes section on weapons showed up in the output, because you could easily write Favored or Defense+2 or something, and it would show up on the roll.  Obviously you wouldn't want the whole Notes section shown in your screenshot, though. Any ideas?

That's a good point. I can add a single line Note section for output in chat, and keep the current bigger note for more detailed description.

Maybe called them Note (singular), and Description.

How does that sound?

Awesome. Will you be utilizing the Turn Tracker on your sheet also do you think?

TiaMaster said:

Awesome. Will you be utilizing the Turn Tracker on your sheet also do you think?

Yes, I'll be using it the same way as the old sheet does. It's the only way I've been able to find for non-API users to get Possibility and UP rolls to work without manually entering the last roll each time.

I'll add the option of using an API script that doesnt use the turn tracker, for Pro users.

GiGs said:

I just realised I'll need to tweak the skill list since the Language skill can be taken multiple times. Are there any other skills like that?

Yes. Scholar, Science, Profession.
Although as I look in the CRB Scholar and Science don't explicitly SAY they have to be taken multiple times. Maybe in Eternity its just Profession.

Well, thanks for this! We have been using GM Matt's sheets for a while now. If you can improve on it, colour me impressed.

Is the Drama Deck still available in the marketplace? <checks> Yes it is: https://marketplace.roll20.net/browse/gameaddon/435/torg-eternity-drama-deck

You can modify it but I have not figured this out yet. I would like to add all of the deck expansions from the cosm kickstarters.

TiaMaster said:

GiGs said:

I just realised I'll need to tweak the skill list since the Language skill can be taken multiple times. Are there any other skills like that?

Yes. Scholar, Science, Profession.
Although as I look in the CRB Scholar and Science don't explicitly SAY they have to be taken multiple times. Maybe in Eternity its just Profession.

It does look like Profession is the only one that needs to be taken extra times.

After much trial and tribulation, I finally got the rolltemplate to work with possibilities and ups. I havent the change of the visual look of the rolltemplate yet - I'm concentrating on getting the sheet feature-complete, but I'll probably change its look later. For now, here's a sample Dexterity roll, with two up/possibilities:

As you can see, it shows stymied and wounded when you have them, and shows the last roll when you do an up result.

But the key thing to notice is it uses the correct score - if you made a DEX roll, then when making an UP or Possibility roll, it continues to use the DEX value.

You are prompted for the modifier, and if you pick 0, it doesnt get displayed. One small issue: if you have apply a modifier, and then take an UP/Possibility, you must remember to enter the exact same modifier each time. This is due to a limitation of roll20 macros - they cannot store the results of previous rolls. We are able to cheat this for one value by using the turn tracker-  but that is being used for the roll. So you'll have to do the modifier manually. Fortunately its easy to handle if you forget - just look back at the first roll, read the Modifier section, and add that to the final result.

  Thank you for this. We are playing a torg game and it is wonderful.....\

Is it feasible to have a possibility or Up roll say that is was one of those somewhere in the output?

Yes, I realised after posting the screenshots that I forgot to include that part in the rolltemplate. The finished version will include that information.

Rule question for the sheet: In the Bless miracle, it gives you a bonus to one stat, and if you choose STR or SPI, it doenst increase Toughness or Shock. Are there any temporary STR/SPI mods that do affect Toughness/Shock, or is that the normal rule: stat modifiers do not affect Toughness/Shock?

I'm asking to know how best to implement the mods in the attribute section. If some mods do affect tou/shock, and some don't, I need to tweak that section of the sheet. If its a standard rule for all situations, I dont need to make any changes.

Note: i'm not talking about things which permanently increase you stat the same way as buying them up with advancement. Just for things like these which are temporary mods.

Yes, certain FX that effect STR for instance increase Toughness, such as the Energize psionic ability. There are more but I just needed one example. 

I wonder if thats an oversight. Every other power I've been able to find that increases STR or SPI has the text that it doesnt affect toughness or shock, and that seems just like all the others in the way it works, the duration, and so on. 

But I'm honestly not sure. Has there been a FAQ on this?

Copy your first paragraph of that post and put it here: http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewforum.php?f=112

The Torg Eternity errata is located here: https://www.ulisses-us.com/TorgEternityWiki/index.php?title=FAQ

And as per Corebook errata for page 69: "Page 69. Add the following to the end of the Attributes section: "Unless otherwise directly stated, temporary attribute increases or decreases do not modify Toughness or Shock.""

Energize specifically has been mentioned as not increasing derived stats numerous times on the old forums. A power has to specifically state that it would affect a derived stat.

Thanks Zoula, that makes sense (and makes my work easier, haha).

Have you thought about handling Combat Options yet? Such as what you did on the custom sheet where it outputs "+4 Long Burst" or similar.

That looks great! Definitely want to make sure Torg Eternity has Roll20 support.

PK L. said:

That looks great! Definitely want to make sure Torg Eternity has Roll20 support.

There is already a Torg Eternity sheet on roll20, so you can play right now if you want without waiting for me to finish this.

TiaMaster said:

Have you thought about handling Combat Options yet? Such as what you did on the custom sheet where it outputs "+4 Long Burst" or similar.

Now when you make a roll you are prompted for the total modifier. Accounting for specific situation modifiers is a problem - where do you draw the line?

Imagine: "I'm making a long burst, and spraying three of them," the GM: "Okay, you're at medium range and they are partially concealed, so you have a -2 total modifier."

There are so many modifiers that might apply, and tracking all of them is has issues: either you make a popup for each, which gets in the way when you want to just make a roll, or you include a bunch of checkbox options on the character sheet that ALL have to be checked or unchecked every time you make a roll, which is a pain and prone to error.

Its much better to just let the players and GM talk to each other and apply a single modifier. The roll macro handles the easy stuff that applies on every roll (wounds, stymied, ongoing attribute or skill modifiers), and players and GM handle per-action modifiers.

GiGs, I tried to contact you to make a direct invite to come and play in our Torg Eternity game, but I don't seem to be able to make PMs.  I'm wondering if it's the fact I'm using Firefox and am loathe to change to anything else?  Anyway, if you're able to PM me, I would be happy to invite you to play in our relatively fresh game.  We began playing January 11th and we're still in Day 1 Living Land; normally, we'll play Saturday evenings around 8pm EST, though this coming Saturday and the one following, my Son is coming in from his most recent Air Force duty station, overseas.  This weekend his flight comes in so early on Sunday morning that I won't have umph to play the previous evening, and the weekend he leaves his flight takes off in what would be our normal game time.  That sort of just kills these two coming weekends, LOL.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that, since my last message, about one week ago, I am singularly impressed with the work you're doing.  You answered all but one of my suggestions/recommendations, and TiaMaster seems to be a wonderful font of knowledge in helping you out.

About spending Possibilities, if you hit the - sign to remove a Possibility, does it automatically roll for you?  If not, I was going to suggest using the Possibility button you've built in to automatically subtract a Possibility.  I did not catch whether or not you've already done that, or if Players will still be required to reduce their Possibilities manually?  Either way is totally awesome, hehe.

Thank you, again, and I can't wait to see this new sheet in action.  I am loving this.

GiGs said:

TiaMaster said:

Have you thought about handling Combat Options yet? Such as what you did on the custom sheet where it outputs "+4 Long Burst" or similar.

Now when you make a roll you are prompted for the total modifier. Accounting for specific situation modifiers is a problem - where do you draw the line?

Imagine: "I'm making a long burst, and spraying three of them," the GM: "Okay, you're at medium range and they are partially concealed, so you have a -2 total modifier."

There are so many modifiers that might apply, and tracking all of them is has issues: either you make a popup for each, which gets in the way when you want to just make a roll, or you include a bunch of checkbox options on the character sheet that ALL have to be checked or unchecked every time you make a roll, which is a pain and prone to error.

Its much better to just let the players and GM talk to each other and apply a single modifier. The roll macro handles the easy stuff that applies on every roll (wounds, stymied, ongoing attribute or skill modifiers), and players and GM handle per-action modifiers.

So, this way you will not get the Success Levels since you are not supplying the DN, correct?