[Torg Eternity] Sheet redesign thread

Imported BoBo and Dragon Warrior.

I made some good progress on the versionator tonight. Got the hardest part done (not attacks or powers, but skills, funnily enough). If i get some time to work on it tomorrow, should get it finished. Thanks for sharing those characters everyone, they've been very helpful. 

So I couldn't import the stats of my wife's character (Carver).  But I have to say the sheet looks absolutely amazing.  Probably my doing, as I am still relatively new at roll20.  Any advice?

Michael W. said: So I couldn't import the stats of my wife's character (Carver).  But I have to say the sheet looks absolutely amazing.  Probably my doing, as I am still relatively new at roll20.  Any advice? It looks like the same issue TiaMaster had earlier. The character was imported, but permission wasnt set. I've given you control. TiaMaster said: Imported BoBo and Dragon Warrior. Bobo's permission doesnt seem to have been set, and Dragon Warrior was set to all, instead of just you. (I need to check if it's done that with others, ISTR noticing a few characters with Edited by All). I fixed those two.

The versionator is mostly done - stats, skills, powers, weapons, etc., all convert properly as far as I can see. I will get a version up so you can go over it with a fine toothcomb once I have some bugs quashed. Outstanding issues: SERIOUS: if a character has a stat MOD, it doesnt convert that stat properly. This is the big issue that needs sorting out. MINOR: if characters have only one set of armour, it adds a second - empty - row to the armour box anyway. This oddly only happens to some characters, not all. TRICKY: converting Shock/Wounds increases is a little trickier than expected, since people use the current and max boxes differently (some put their max in current, some in max, some dont use max at all, and so on). At worst, I can put a temporary note on the sheet for people to enter these increases manually.

Looks like that serious bug is sorted, whew.

Okay.  It mostly imported over, but I was able to play with it just fine.  It is amazing, much smoother and more intuitive.  When you are ready to release it, my Friday night game will drool over it.  Now if I can find some time, maybe I can do something with the pool/hand situation.

Michael W. said: Okay.  It mostly imported over, but I was able to play with it just fine.  It is amazing, much smoother and more intuitive.  When you are ready to release it, my Friday night game will drool over it.  Now if I can find some time, maybe I can do something with the pool/hand situation. That's great. We should also start a thread in General Use for advice about card management in this game, because I'm going to have trouble there too.

So how does the versionator work? does it work automagically upon importing a character? If so thats amazing.

It's part of the sheet's code. When you load this sheet into a campaign (and when i submit it to roll20's github, this will happen automatically for everyone using the old sheet), it runs automatically whenever you open a character sheet. It checks the sheets version, tp see of the versionator has already updated the sheet. If so, it does nothing. If the sheet has not been updated, it gets updated without the user having to do anything. Lots of sheets do some form of this to handle significant upgrades - the sheet worker code makes it possible. As far as users are concerned, one day they'll open their campaign, and all their characters will suddenly be using a new sheet. This is why its usually a good idea to give some advance warning of major changes - it can be a bit jarring! :) 

When are you starting work on the Compendium?

haha, we dont have support for custom compendiums on roll20. The devs are the only ones who can create compendiums.

Is there a way to "print" or "save" an existing character sheet offline on or my hard drive or something?  I could see where some people would want to do that before the new sheet went live in case there were unintended issues.  Not suggesting there will be problems, but if there is warning and people have a chance to have a backup so data doesn't get lost some will feel better.

Things will be okay. I'm taking time and testing thoroughly to make sure everything is converted properly. I could have pushed the sheet live for this weeks update, but it would have been a scramble and things weren't tested properly. I care too much about people's data to risk that. I'll be putting up a test version before going life to shake out the bugs, and I've identified the area where things might not be fully converted (wounds and shock, if increased via perks). The announcement that is printed on sheet letting people know of the update will warn them and I'll try to include the old values so people can manually update them. Sheets get updated like this all the time, and everything on the sheet falls within known parameters, so its possible to make a robust versioning upgrade that is guaranteed not to lose data.

GiGs said: That's great. We should also start a thread in General Use for advice about card management in this game, because I'm going to have trouble there too. Agreed.  If you start it, please post an addy, here, and I'll participate there, as well? GiGs said: As far as users are concerned, one day they'll open their campaign, and all their characters will suddenly be using a new sheet. This is why its usually a good idea to give some advance warning of major changes - it can be a bit jarring! :) That's what I was trying to bring up, earlier in this thread, setting a warning for folks, and putting it only on here is not necessarily the best way to do it.  So you're not alarmed, I'm still waiting until you say it's ready to launch. GiGs said: haha, we dont have support for custom compendiums on roll20. The devs are the only ones who can create compendiums. Okay, that's what I was trying to figure out, as well.  I had thought we were able to do so, but if not who do we need to talk with to get one started that we can help with?  I'm not programmer savvy, anymore, and I don't have the mind right now (due to PTSD) to create it.  However, I have a crap-ton of information I've been entering from books for my own personal game, and I would be happy to share it and/or sort it into a Compendium.

Pauly da Leg-breaka said: Okay, that's what I was trying to figure out, as well.  I had thought we were able to do so, but if not who do we need to talk with to get one started that we can help with?  I'm not programmer savvy, anymore, and I don't have the mind right now (due to PTSD) to create it.  However, I have a crap-ton of information I've been entering from books for my own personal game, and I would be happy to share it and/or sort it into a Compendium. That is something that would probably have to start with Ulisses that has the copyright on Torg.  If they don't have a free SRD, then all their content is protected IP, and can't be developed without some sort of an agreement.

Pauly da Leg-breaka said: Okay, that's what I was trying to figure out, as well.  I had thought we were able to do so, but if not who do we need to talk with to get one started that we can help with?  I'm not programmer savvy, anymore, and I don't have the mind right now (due to PTSD) to create it.  However, I have a crap-ton of information I've been entering from books for my own personal game, and I would be happy to share it and/or sort it into a Compendium. There are plans afoot to allow people to create custom compendiums. But if they ever arrive, one thing that is guaranteed: they wont be shareable. You'll create your compendium, and wont be able to share it with other GMs, so it'll be limited what you can do with them. Kraynic said: That is something that would probably have to start with Ulisses that has the copyright on Torg.  If they don't have a free SRD, then all their content is protected IP, and can't be developed without some sort of an agreement. Yeah, if you want a compendium that works like the D&D or Pathfinder compendiums, you will need two things: Some deal to be made between Ulysses North and Roll20, to get the rights for roll20 to host the compendium An official sheet made by the roll20 devs, that gives compendium support - because the roll20 devs are the only ones that have access to the backend that makes compendiums work. If Custom Compendiums ever get introduced, remember they'll be limited to specific campaigns, and the GMs will have to create their own content. That means sheets like mine have no use for them, because we cant rely on any specific content existing. For the same reason that most sheets dont use rollable tables (even though they'd be handy for some games), because its reliant on GMs making them and that's extra work the sheet maker cant assume has been or will be done. And making compendiums will take a LOT more work than making rollable tables.

IMPORTANT I'm going to create a new testbed campaign this week, and when I do, I'll delete the old one. So if there are any characters you've created in there that you want to keep, copy them out to your character vault. It's taking a bit longer than i hoped, because of figuring out how to handle unskilled and disfavoured skills, but the sheet will be better for it.

So, regarding the game I have starting tomorrow evening...we are creating characters.  Is it possible to use the sheet in its current state? I just hate to introduce new players with the old sheet then change one week later.

Hey @GiGs- Original sheet author here. This looks AMAZING. I'm glad someone with the skills to get this done right has finally taken over. Hope it wasn't too hard to fix some  of the hacks I had to use to make it work. Keep up the good work! I'm following with great interest. - Matt

Hi Matt! I wondered if you were still around, I wanted to let you know I was doing this. I'm glad to have your blessing. You laid the groundwork and some of the techniques you used (like saving the last roll in the initiative tracker) were ingenious, and the sheet couldnt have been as useful without them.

TiaMaster said: So, regarding the game I have starting tomorrow evening...we are creating characters.  Is it possible to use the sheet in its current state? I just hate to introduce new players with the old sheet then change one week later. I'm sorry, but no. If you'd asked me that the day before yesterday, I'd have said yes. But then I started work on the upgrade needed to support unskilled and disfavoured skills, and it forced me to reassess a lot of the rollbutton and related code that affects the whole sheet. So it's not in a state to use just yet, and giving an older version would create more work for me later (creating a separate upgrade process for your players than is needed by other players). I recommend using the official sheet for now. I know you have a custom sheet, but there are some differences in stat names between that and the official one that will mean when you switch to the new sheet, you'll have to do some upgrading manually. You wont have to use it for long.

I would love to take credit for using the initiative tracker to save rolls, but that was someone who came along after me, but before you! - Matt GiGs said: Hi Matt! I wondered if you were still around, I wanted to let you know I was doing this. I'm glad to have your blessing. You laid the groundwork and some of the techniques you used (like saving the last roll in the initiative tracker) were ingenious, and the sheet couldnt have been as useful without them.

GM Matt said: I would love to take credit for using the initiative tracker to save rolls, but that was someone who came along after me, but before you! - Matt Curious how this works?  Sounds like it might be handy.  Anyone care to elaborate?

Vince said: Curious how this works?  Sounds like it might be handy.  Anyone care to elaborate? It works best for games that dont already use the initiative tracker, since your actual initiative score will be overridden by it.  In Torg, you dont use initiative numbers, but you do often need to look at your roll, then decide if you want to roll UP (add another roll on top of it). Fate would be another system that could benefit from this. The principle is fairly simple, the implementation requires a bit of cleverness. So, you know that using &{tracker} in a roll adds whatever you rolled to the initiative tracker? Then you need a way to get that value back when you want to use it. You can actually get numbers from the tracker using @{tracker|token-name}. But this isnt dynamic - you need to supply the character name (more accurately, the token name) at the time. You cant do this  @{tracker|@{selected|token_name}} obviously. But there's a very old trick that does allow you to combine two attributes and get a valid attribute call, like so <input type="hidden" name="attr_trackerprefix" value="@{tracker|" /> <input type="hidden" name="attr_previous-result" value="@{trackerprefix}@{selected|token_name}}" /> So you can then use @{previous-result} in macros, which will always show the last roll you made, as long as you have &{tracker} in each of your roll macros. This does require you to have a token selected whenever you make a roll.

Vince said: Curious how this works?  Sounds like it might be handy.  Anyone care to elaborate? So its been a while since I looked at it, so I may have some of the details wrong, but basically Roll20 has a number that it stores for each player in something called an initiative tracker. Its actual purpose is to store the initiative rolls for players in systems that use them - most notably 5E. But that number can be changed by the API. In TE, we don't need initiative numbers. All of that done with the Drama Deck. However, we DO need to know what someone's previous "Roll Total" was when they are rolling a second (or third, or fourth) time to generate a bonus number. Somebody who came along after my initial design decided to use the initiative tracker for that purpose. It is/was a little wonky, because you have to make sure your token is selected before you make your skill rolls, but... if you can remember to do that, the sheet will automatically add together your next roll to the last one, and calculate a new roll total/bonus for you. It was a really good idea. (Update: while I was composing this post, GiGs posted as well - looks as if he's got all the technical detail that is long forgotten by me!)

Thanks for the detailed answers.  Putting this trick in my bag. ;-)

OK, I'm going to ask a stupid question, but bear with me: Where do I find this sheet? I find Roll20's segmentation of sheets, compendiums, maps, marketplace items, etc. incredibly confusing. Why can't there be one place for everything?

It's not ready for use yet. When I finish it, it'll replace the existing Torg Eternity sheet. You'll just select it from the usual character sheet drop down, from a campaigns setting. If you want to check out the test version, the link is on page 3 of this thread.

Kraynic said: That is something that would probably have to start with Ulisses that has the copyright on Torg.  If they don't have a free SRD, then all their content is protected IP, and can't be developed without some sort of an agreement. Okay.  Thank you to both Kraynic and GiGs for that clarification.  Ulisses Spiele have, of late, begun a sort of slow-burn campaign to get Torg known, so I might just approach them and find out if they would be willing to start one and put some folks to work on it. GiGs said: IMPORTANT I'm going to create a new testbed campaign this week, and when I do, I'll delete the old one. So if there are any characters you've created in there that you want to keep, copy them out to your character vault. It's taking a bit longer than i hoped, because of figuring out how to handle unskilled and disfavoured skills, but the sheet will be better for it. That sounds great!  The one character I managed to get enough time to create, there, is more or less expendable; however, it did get me thinking about how much I really want to PLAY Torg, rather than running it all the time.  I have, not one time, been able to play an actual character.  Anyway, I'll likely make up a new character, there, once you've announced the new Campaign is open. Initiative Tracker Use :  I've never used the Initiative Tracker for anything, but it sounds as though it may be very useful for my game.  Is there anything special, off either the current sheet or the forthcoming new version, I need to do to make this run so it's more or less automatic?  Or, just turn it on?

Pauly da Leg-breaka said: Initiative Tracker Use :  I've never used the Initiative Tracker for anything, but it sounds as though it may be very useful for my game.  Is there anything special, off either the current sheet or the forthcoming new version, I need to do to make this run so it's more or less automatic?  Or, just turn it on? You just need to switch it on, in the settings cog at the top right (on firefix it just looks like a floating checkbox - keep forgetting to check why it doesnt display on firefox). It's labelled Use Tokens for Roll Tracking.

Ahh, thanks for that! I missed that post.  GiGs said: It's not ready for use yet. When I finish it, it'll replace the existing Torg Eternity sheet. You'll just select it from the usual character sheet drop down, from a campaigns setting. If you want to check out the test version, the link is on page 3 of this thread.

I've just added the buttons to roll for Active Defence and General Bonus (for multi-action/multi-targeting), and have a question that I cant see addressed in the rules. Normally you roll up if you get a 10 or 20. If you're unskilled, you only roll up on a 10. When you take a multi-action, you generate one total and apply it to all skills in the test. What happens if some are unskilled and others arent, and you roll a 20? Likewise, for active defences, you generate one total, and then apply it to all defences as needed during the turn. What happens if one of those defences is based on an unskilled skill, and you rolled a 20? Remember the bonus is generated before you look at any totals, and you may already have spent possibilities or other UP benefits on the roll. My guess is for those rolls, you ignore the effect of unskilled - it gets too fiddly otherwise. I'm certainly building the sheet that way. But is there a definitive answer in FAQ or elsewhere? PS: i just completed the massive overhaul of the rolltemplate buttons and code used to calculate them (whew), and we're in the final stretch now. Still some things to do and test, but all the hard stuff is done. If nothing comes up, I should have version 2 (and if all goes well, the final version) of the testing sheet up by the weekend.

You are treated as Unskilled if one of the skills in a multi action are unskilled. And yes...I know. Its too fiddly.

I went against your advice and had the players use the Custom sheet. Figuring that next session we could take some time and fix any issues.   Boy, did a lot of things go wrong. At this point I'm just wanting everything to work properly.

TiaMaster is correct.  If any skill of a Multi-Action is unskilled, the entire roll is treated as unskilled.  Hence, the argument for lots of skills at low adds -vs- a few skills with a lot of adds.   In regards to active defense.  A clip from the rules: Active Defense: A character may declare an active defense at any time as long as she has not used her action that round. She may also perform simple actions as usual. The first time she’s attacked, she rolls a bonus and applies it to all her defenses that round— physical, interactive, magical, etc. This should be rolled just before the first attack total is generated. Note that if Defend is an Approved Action, it’s successful only if the target is attacked and missed. Minimum Bonus: An active defense can’t make a target more vulnerable—treat any Bonus Number less than +1 as +1.  My interpretation (and others correct me if I am wrong), an active defense is technically not a "SKILL TEST".  The hero is sacrificing their action to defend against all attacks.  Therefore, I have been treating ALL active defense rolls as skilled, regardless of what the villain is attacking with or what skill the hero needs to defend with.  I'm not sure if that's correct or not.  And for me it hasn't really mattered, my heroes are almost always actively defending against physical attacks, and are skilled in those areas.  For whatever reason my players are willing to be intimidated all day long, but taking 2 points of shock just annoys the heck out of them.  To each their own I guess.

Michael D. said: ...For whatever reason my players are willing to be intimidated all day long, but taking 2 points of shock just annoys the heck out of them.  To each their own I guess. AHA So true.

Michael D. said: TiaMaster is correct.  If any skill of a Multi-Action is unskilled, the entire roll is treated as unskilled.  Hence, the argument for lots of skills at low adds -vs- a few skills with a lot of adds.   Ahh that makes sense, and I'll need to add a drop down on the multi-action button to ask if it's skilled or not. That's easily done. My interpretation (and others correct me if I am wrong), an active defense is technically not a "SKILL TEST".  The hero is sacrificing their action to defend against all attacks.   That's the way I was leaning too, and it makes sense. It's certainly both the simplest and kindest way to handle it.

New Sheet Link The new sheet for testing is here:&nbsp; <a href="https://app.roll20.net/join/5981834/-xhKMQ" rel="nofollow">https://app.roll20.net/join/5981834/-xhKMQ</a> You can create new characters in the campaign, but I'd also like you to Vault in some complete characters. Things I want to check: Check that stats are converted properly, especially those which had a score of 8. In the old campaign, there was an issue with stats being zeroed out before the versionator could update them, but I'm not sure if that was a sheet issue or an issue with the Vault transfer. Every character converted in place has worked fine. But if there are issues I want to know. Check the stat mod associated with skills - those which had DEX as the governing attribute weren't being converted properly due to an issue with the way the old sheet worked. DEX was the default, so if players had never manually changed the attribute, it wasnt actually recorded in the sheet. It should be fixed, but watch out for this. Wounds, shock, and toughness: converting those is a bit tricky, because (especially with the first two) people are inconsistent about how they use the current and max scores. My script has to guess how each character uses them, then attempt to check if players have increased their max through perks. This is the one section I havent fully tested, so I'm curious if there are issues. It might not be possible to do this accurately. I may have to add a little notice saying what the old scores were, and let people manually change them if needed. Armour: people with just one armour item were getting an empty line on the armour table. Not a big deal, could just be deleted afterwards, but it is hopefully fixed. So, I could have done more testing on the above, but I didnt want to keep you waiting any longer. If there are issues, whether these or others, don't be alarmed - it'll help us figure out what needs to be fixed. Sheet Features There are still a few minor styling things to do (especially with the damage rolltemplate, and the footnote on attacks needs a bit of styling, aso some minor differences between chrome and firefox here and there). But the sheet is now fully functional. We discussed before about how tricky it was to find the skills selection screen, and the derived abilities popup. I've come up with a decent solution, I think. let me know if you agree or disagree. Basically every one of the big headings on the sheet does something now -Skills, Attributes, Defences, Perks, Armour, Weapons and Powers, Equipment. Once people have used the sheet it will be natural to go, "where was that popup? Oh lets hover over the headings and see which one it is." The Perks/Equipment/Armour/Weapons and Attacks headings do something neat: they minimise or maximise all items in their section at once. So you're looking at Perks and want to read the description of some of them - you dont need to manually click each check box. Just click the heading and it opens them all, and click it again and it hides them all. The Skill heading shows the skill selection popup. The Attributes heading rolls the Multi-Action bonus. i might add a button image as well, we'll see. The Defences heading rolls an Active Defence. Ditto on on the button image. The Status heading shows the Cosm-specific Possibilities popup (since the Possibilities button is at the top of that section). The Derived Abilities heading shows the popup for shock/wound/etc boosts. Anyway, give the sheet a try and I look forward to your feedback. Known Issues NO FIX POSSIBLE: In the old sheet, there was a place to enter Damage Formula for attacks. This was a plain text field, and there's no way to match this with any certainty. So, I don't attempt to: I just past it in the Attack Note, and let people apply it manually. The actual Damage Value is a number field and is converted properly. NO FIX NEEDED:&nbsp;When converting skills to the new sheet, the script has to be identify which skill your old skill was, by the name you typed in the box. If there are typos, or it isnt spelled exactly as in the Torg Rulebook, this will fail. When this happens, your skill will be added to the Custom Skills section. There's no automated fix for this. Try to make sure your skill names are spelled properly. But if not, it's no big deal - you can manually transfer it to the skill it is meant to be. NO FIX NEEDED (but considering it anyway): The update announcement tab comes up for all new characters, including ones not made on the previous sheet. It would be nice for that to only appear on characters being updated, and i may figure it out, but its not essential. FIX PENDING: Melee Weapons will not be converted properly. This is fixed in my design version, but not in the live campaign yet. FIX PENDING: Toughness scores of those wearing armour will be 'slight;y' incorrect. A fix is pending. Thats all for now. I'll update this list as things are discovered, in a later post .

AWESOME!&nbsp; Looking forward to testing for you.&nbsp; Home with a migraine today, so, unless I start to feel better, probably not until Sunday for me as our regular bi-weekly session is tomorrow.&nbsp;&nbsp; Really appreciate all of the work you have done GiG's.&nbsp; I know enough about coding and logic (wife and best friend are IT and programmers) to know how much effort and time this really took.&nbsp; If it wasn't for you and GMMatt and others that have donated their time with enhancements and improvements along the way we really wouldn't be able to play TorgE on Roll20 very effectively.&nbsp; The work you have done that the rest of us benefit from is really awesome.&nbsp; Thank you very much.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Imported Dragon Warrior but I cannot access sheet. Probably permissions again.&nbsp; I TOTALLY love the Vault.&nbsp; -_- Multi-Action bonus doesn't take into account statuses?

Oh good point. I will add that. Active Defence doesnt either - do wounds affect active defence rolls? Dragon warrior was set to controlled by All, so its weird you couldnt access it. I switched it to just you, hopefully its fine now?

GiGs said: Oh good point. I will add that. Active Defence doesnt either - do wounds affect active defence rolls? I uh...how do I not know this.&nbsp; I see arguments either way. Anybody else heard anything on this one?&nbsp; The Errata and FAQ are still not back up on the website.

My guess is they wont affect Active Defences, since wounds dont affect normal defences AFAIK. But it's worth checking.

I posted the question so we'll see. The problem was that the sheet came over unattached to the token I guess. Something else that I cant fix. Dragon Claws came over as being Energy Weapons. Its probably impossible to know what people write in the Damage Formula section, so that didn't come over right. Melee Weapons came over with no adds. TOU is calculating wrong. Would still like to have Run speed in the Derived mods list.

Heard back - Active Defense is affected by Statuses.

TiaMaster said: I posted the question so we'll see. The problem was that the sheet came over unattached to the token I guess. Something else that I cant fix. Dragon Claws came over as being Energy Weapons. Its probably impossible to know what people write in the Damage Formula section, so that didn't come over right. Melee Weapons came over with no adds. TOU is calculating wrong. Would still like to have Run speed in the Derived mods list. I'm not planning to have Run modifier in the derived section at this stage. That's handy for&nbsp; monsters and will be done when i do the threats tab.&nbsp; I'll check the others later. Though I wouldnt worry about the dragon claws name - that sounds like I've just filled the name with the wrong attribute. That should be an easy fix.&nbsp;

TiaMaster said: Heard back - Active Defense is affected by Statuses. Do you have a link?

GiGs said: TiaMaster said: Heard back - Active Defense is affected by Statuses. Do you have a link? No official statement yet. <a href="http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=112&amp;t=23697" rel="nofollow">http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=112&amp;t=23697</a>